The Impressions on 180gm Vinyl and the $70K System

[teaser5]

I started buying "heavy vinyl" a couple of years ago when I got back into records and got my Rega P3. Frankly I have not always had great luck with these LP's. Some titles sound great but others only OK and lots of times I have been disappointed with the surface noise I hear.

Recently I boght a copy of The Impressions record Times Have Changed, an early seventies album produced by but otherwise not really featuring Curtis Mayfield. (Think What's Goin' On but not as good). It's on Get Back Records. Anyway, I gave it a listen a couple of days ago and found the surface noise to be so pronounced; especially during the quieter passages that it distracted me to the point where I could not listen and this was after a spin through the VPI Cleaning Machine.

Fearing that I was doing something wrong I took it to Sound Works in Kensington MD last night and let my buddy Scott cue it up in one of his monster systems. He put it on a VPI TNT with a Grado Wood Cart and the JMW Memorial 12.5 arm. He ran mother Krell mono blocks, BAT pre, Audio Research PH3 phono stage (that I am auditioning now...finally) and Aeriel Research speakers. A seventy thousand dollar system. It sounded amazing. Except for the surface noise.

Tom Port has told me that well cared for old records can sound better than these new, expensive boutique LP's. Not all the time of course but sometimes. When I asked Scott last night if the noise bothered him his response was "That's Vinyl."

Anyway, here's my questions:

Does any of this sound familiar? Does this happen to you guys? I couldn't live with myself returning an album to my local indie record store because it crackles but it still bugs me.

If the cleaner didn't help it, will the record possibly improve with repeated playings? Or is this it?

Finally: am I looking for too much? Is this background noise just part of the sound and character of an LP and part of the price of getting a warmer and more real sound? I mean I vividly recall when CD's came out and being so pumped because I would now have "perfect sound" and no more pops, crackles and skips.

I could really use some advice here and all are encouraged to participate
Thanks!
Norm

[Sckott]

Steve sighted me on a semi-rant I had a while ago. I really had some problems with some of the vinyl I had paid good, GOOD money for that came from RTI. His comment was "Vinyl cannot always be perfect".

Welp, he's right.

However, if you're not happy with something, seek out either another copy through exchange or if it's a used LP you've found in a record store, find another copy soon.

Tom is absolutely right when he says some ordinary LPs have totally wiped the floor with some "high end" recent issues. It's just like shopping for CDs and remasters. Sometimes, it's easier to ask 1st in this forum than to take the plunge and get bit on it.


This is what people here might not agree with: A new record should not need more than a quick sweep with something non-obtrusive like a D4 brush and a VERY light line of fluid. (Yes, I use the D4. So sue me) That's just to take the static "bite" off of it, and remove paper dust if it exists. Paper dust is the #1 cause of "brush scuffing".

If you're soaking the LP in liquid and using a vacuum on it right out of the wrap, something's wrong. You should never have to wet-clean a brand new record. I've also never experienced improvement on a NEW RECORD. A yard sale grab, damn yes--- go get that VPI or Disc Doctor w/vac.

If you believe you need to wet-clean brand new records, that's fine. I feel strongly against that, and always have, time after time.

Again, just recently I bought perfectly new LPs that came from RTI, and one was scorched, another was marred, possibly right after pressing. LIFE ISN'T PERFECT and neither is vinyl.

So, last night, I took my used Harvest US pressing of Ummagumma, and played "Grandchester Medows" and it was D E A D Q U I E T :eek: This is a used pressing I got through an eBay, of all things.

Luck works both ways. Be resilient. Be attentive, and don't give up. Vinyl isn't for wussies, and the rewards are great if you be careful, and go with what your heart says.

If you need to return that LP because it's horrible, then that's what you should do.

Again, all are MHO only.

[audio]

Originally posted by Sckott


If you're soaking the LP in liquid and using a vacuum on it right out of the wrap, something's wrong. You should never have to wet-clean a brand new record. I've also never experienced improvement on a NEW RECORD.


I completely disagree. It is absolutely essential to clean a new record right out of the wrap to remove any manufacturing residue or in some cases, if the record is NOS, mold.

[aashton]

I find crackles very intrusive - but they seem to occur on a very small number of my records so I find the statement "That's Vinyl" to probably be a reflection of that particular set-up. I buy a lot of sealed vinyl and try to get mint items on everything else - I don't mind the premium if I can get hold of a quality item :)

JMHO - Peace and happy listening o millenial one :)

All the best - Andrew

[Sckott]

Ah-hah. See? Not that no one should disagree with me, but I knew someone would right away. ;)

Aashton has a good point too... Always make sure it's not your cart...

[audio]

Norm, I think Tom Port is correct. I used to get jazzed about new lps, but most of the ones I've heard are unimpressive compared to the original. I don't even bother with them anymore. I have the 180gm of the Impressions "The Young Mod's Forgotten Story" and I don't think it's anything special. It is pretty noisy also. My advice is to look for original lps. If they are sealed, that's even better. Watch out for fake seals, though. Don't be playin' your records without cleaning them if you aren't into surface noise. All you will do is bake the dirt into the grooves and you'll never get rid of the pops. Another thought....there are those who say that a new record requires several plays before the grooves are broken in and it's sounding it's best. Don't give up, man. Vinyl is too much fun. Just ditch the Impressions reissue and move on.

[audio]

Originally posted by Sckott
Ah-hah. See? Not that no one should disagree with me, but I knew someone would right away. ;)

Aashton has a good point too... Always make sure it's not your cart...


Excellent advice. A dirty stylus doesn't help either.

[teaser5]

Disagree on. This is the stuff want need to hear.
Keep 'em coming please
Thanks
Norm
Millenial Potato Head

[audio]

Teaser5ie:
Don't do this to yourself.
Plug your guitar in and turn it up really loud and do some windmill power chords.
Breathe
Your longbox is in the mail
Peace
Dr Prix

[Gary]

Dear Mr. 1000 'tater head:

I rarely buy new vinyl but when I do (I came across a few sealed DCC's and MFSL's actually - including DCC's Pet Sounds, of all things!!!) I don't clean them. I expect them to be perfect. Popping and clicking must be tolerated.

As a matter of fact I don't have a record cleaning machine. Never needed one!

I much prefer used LPs. You can easily check the condition with a fair degree of accuracy and the selection is much more varied. Easy to take back if you get a clunker.

Look, Fred, one of the three guys who buy our vinyl wants to return it! Don't offend the guy - we NEED him! :D

Congrats on the Big Thousand!

[audio]

Originally posted by Gary
Dear Mr. 1000 'tater head:

I rarely buy new vinyl but when I do (I came across a few sealed DCC's and MFSL's actually - including DCC's Pet Sounds, of all things!!!) I don't clean them. I expect them to be perfect.

Think of it in terms of washing a piece of exotic tropical fruit from Mexico that you buy at the grocery store. The fruit is perfect, but you've got to remove the residue.

[Grant]

Originally posted by teaser5


Finally: am I looking for too much? Is this background noise just part of the sound and character of an LP and part of the price of getting a warmer and more real sound? I mean I vividly recall when CD's came out and being so pumped because I would now have "perfect sound" and no more pops, crackles and skips.

I could really use some advice here and all are encouraged to participate
Thanks!
Norm

Norm,

I absolutely HATE vinyl noise, and I always have! It bothers me to hear it. Even ONE click will send me reeling! It's why I clean up most of my LP-to CD-R transfers.

Having said that, I like vinyl for the music it gives me that the companies won't give up on CD or anywhere else. Sometimes, the sound is superior to CD if the vinyl was cut carefully from a good master tape.

I would get rid of anything I could not live with.

I'm with Sckott, in that all I do is run the D4 brush with fluid over the disc, and that is only if I can see it's dirty.

[audio]

Originally posted by Grant




I'm with Sckott, in that all I do is run the D4 brush with fluid over the disc, and that is only if I can see it's dirty.

You would be better of doing nothing to your records. The D4 brush is the worst possible record "cleaning" tool you can use. They are notorious for grinding dirt further into the grooves. If you simply want to brush off your records without cleaning them, better to get yourself a carbon fiber dry brush and you'll already be making a huge improvement over the D4.

[Gary]

What's the D4 brush? Is that the Discwasher brush with the thick wood handle on one side with a hole for the fluid bottle?

If so, I'll toss mine (if I ever find it again!). I just use an anti-static dust brush.

[Grant]

Originally posted by prix


You would be better of doing nothing to your records. The D4 brush is the worst possible record "cleaning" tool you can use. They are notorious for grinding dirt further into the grooves. If you simply want to brush off your records without cleaning them, better to get yourself a carbon fiber dry brush and you'll already be making a huge improvement over the D4.

I don't use it much now, only when the record is very dirty. Otherwise, i'll play it as is.

[cjk1026]

First off, I wash every record before the first playing. NOS, new or used, it doesn't matter. Secondly, as far as vinyl "noise" is concerned, it's been well reported that many contemporary recordings have the same "noise" added intentionally for effect. One musician friend recently told me studies have shown that the "coldness" of "perfect" digital can subliminally leave you wanting. Something about our brains wanting the spaces between the 1's and 0's to be filled. I even read a story about a senior citizens home in New England where the staff noticed the residents not relaxing like they used to after switching to a cdp for music therapy. So much indeed, that they went back to vinyl. Go figure. I guess our brains and hearing are not digital, yet.

[stever]

Acoustic Sounds lists an AudioQuest carbon fiber record brush for $15. Is there any reason to look anywhere else for a better product or price?

[Holy Zoo]

Originally posted by prix

Dr Prix

Not meaning to threadcrap, but I've been wondering this for awhile. Carey - what kind of Doctor are you in "the real world"?

jeff

[Grant]

Originally posted by cjk1026
First off, I wash every record before the first playing. NOS, new or used, it doesn't matter. Secondly, as far as vinyl "noise" is concerned, it's been well reported that many contemporary recordings have the same "noise" added intentionally for effect. One musician friend recently told me studies have shown that the "coldness" of "perfect" digital can subliminally leave you wanting. Something about our brains wanting the spaces between the 1's and 0's to be filled. I even read a story about a senior citizens home in New England where the staff noticed the residents not relaxing like they used to after switching to a cdp for music therapy. So much indeed, that they went back to vinyl. Go figure. I guess our brains and hearing are not digital, yet.

I think it has more to do with conditioning.

You have to consider that many of us, and all of those senior citizens are used to noise along with the recording in the form of analog media and radio. Also, the noise or tape hiss has an effect on the music itself, softening it up a bit. It could be that those older people were affected by the presence of a frequency effectively dampened by whatever noise masked it. It's also true that hearing loss at highrer frequencies will accent the mids, which can be irritating.

There are, of course, people who do not like any noise in their music, and enjoy it more that way.

Me? I hate vinyl noise, but don't mind tape hiss. I do hate sterile sound.

[cunningham]

I am surprised to see so many comments about surface noise. I rarely get it on new or used lps. Does anyone else have a quiet set-up?

[SVL]

If you are getting more noise from vinyl with your TT/cart setup, you might be getting more music too, though not necessarily;). I guess there would have to be a compromise, i.e. adjustments would have to be made depending on your own personal tolerance to noise.

[Claus]

I have no problem with a little bit surface noise... but I do use a record cleaner and after most of my records sounds like new!

[audio]

Originally posted by Gary
What's the D4 brush? Is that the Discwasher brush with the thick wood handle on one side with a hole for the fluid bottle?


Yes.

[audio]

Originally posted by Grant


Otherwise, i'll play it as is.


Please believe me, for the sake of preserving vinyl for future generations, it is a bad idea to play an lp that hasn't been properly cleaned. Quite simply, it ruins them.

[audio]

Originally posted by cjk1026
First off, I wash every record before the first playing. NOS, new or used, it doesn't matter. Secondly, as far as vinyl "noise" is concerned, it's been well reported that many contemporary recordings have the same "noise" added intentionally for effect. One musician friend recently told me studies have shown that the "coldness" of "perfect" digital can subliminally leave you wanting. Something about our brains wanting the spaces between the 1's and 0's to be filled. I even read a story about a senior citizens home in New England where the staff noticed the residents not relaxing like they used to after switching to a cdp for music therapy. So much indeed, that they went back to vinyl. Go figure. I guess our brains and hearing are not digital, yet.


Our brain does not perceive the space between the 1s and 0s. We are not hearing digital information. We are hearing digital information that has been converted into an analog stream. The "strobe effect" argument about cds is not based on any facts that I am aware of, but I certainly could be wrong. Cds have a much wider dynamic range than lps. When you are used to the limited range of vinyl, you bet a cd is going to sound "harsh" because there is so much more sonic information on a cd that it can sound overwhelming and alarming.