Needle drops...Where should my record levels be?

[Chris R]

I'm a tad confused and not sure how to approach this topic.

I have been recording several LPs to the computer in the past few months and was wondering where I should be setting my record levels. Also, can someone please explain how to read recording levels in Cool Edit Pro, that I use for my needle drops. Those numbers on the right side of the program start at 0 and work their way out to -30000. What is that about?

I have my Rega Planer 3 turntable running through my old analogue Hitachi HTA-7000 tuner/amplifier. Then I take the output from the amp to my Sony TC-399 1/4 track reel to reel machine, as that is the only component I have with VU metres. Steve mentioned recently that we should find the peak level on the record and make sure that that level does not go into the red.

Well unless my Sony machine needs calibration, when I try that, that is setting the peak level on a particular record to "0" on the Sony VU metres, the .wav file appear to be clipped in Cool Edit. If I dial back the record levels on my TC-399 to somewhere between -3 and -5, then the .wav file begins to look better, but may even still be a bit much. Where should I be setting the record levels via the VU metres?

I miss my days in the radio recording studios where we could flick a 1K tone switch and set all VU metres accordingly. :sigh:

I am thoroughly enjoying my new turntable and want to get the best possible results for my CD-Rs.

Thanks. :)

:help: :wave:

[Chris R]

Apologies if this topic was covered before, but I couldn't find anything in a search.

First example.

Beatles - Tomorrow Never Knows

Sourced from a near mint Revolover, mid 1970s W German pressing on Apple.

Record levels on my Sony TC-399 are peaking at 0. Here is the result in Cool Edit Pro. Looks clipped to me.

:confused:

[Chris R]

Tomorrow Never Knows with peak levels around -4. This still might be a bit too much.

[Dave]

Just off of the visual Mike I'd say that your VU meters require some calibration perhaps. I'd trust the Cool Edit in this instance, but what do your ears tell when all's said and done?:)

[ybe]

If those wav-files are not normalized, it looks like you are overdriving the soundcard.

Skip that reel to reel machine and adjust the recording input levels of your sound card with the windows mixer. Keep the levels in CoolEdit below 0 when recording. Keep your eye on the Level Meter on the bottom of the screen.

In CoolEdit you can check if the recorded files are clipped with Analyze/Statistics.

That -30000 to 0 scale is the amplitude ruler. Double-click on it a couple of times to find the scale that suits your tastes.:)

If you are using SoundBlaster Live! get the kxdrivers: www.kxproject.com if you haven't already.

SoundBlaster Live! kinda sucks with LP transfers, BTW. It clips around -1 and loses some high frequencies. At least mine does.

[Jamie Tate]

Is you 1/4" machine -10 or +4? Sure looks hot for 0 VU.

I have a Rega P3 also. My setup is out of my phono preamp and into my A/D converters. No other level adjustment is needed (which is good because there's no level pots on my converters). My levels are always right on. Not too low but no overs either. I peak around -2. The nice folks that mastered the LP will have taken care of proper levels for you.

[Chris R]

Originally posted by ybe
If those wav-files are not normalized, it looks like you are overdriving the soundcard.

Skip that reel to reel machine and adjust the recording input levels of your sound card with the windows mixer. Keep the levels in CoolEdit below 0 when recording. Keep your eye on the Level Meter on the bottom of the screen.
Markus, I'd love to move my reel to reel deck away from the computer as it's blocking my view outside. :)
Originally posted by ybe

That -30000 to 0 scale is the amplitude ruler. Double-click on it a couple of times to find the scale that suits your tastes.:)
I still don't know what it's for and what those levels mean. I just sort of know that if I open a .wav file and it's flat along the top at -30000, then the song was probably recorded to loud, or if it's from say, the lastest Rush CD, then it was compressed all to heck, digitally, to make our ears bleed.
Originally posted by ybe

If you are using SoundBlaster Live! get the kxdrivers: www.kxproject.com if you haven't already.
I do not have these drivers. I will head over there shortly. Thanks.
Originally posted by ybe
SoundBlaster Live! kinda sucks with LP transfers, BTW. It clips around -1 and loses some high frequencies. At least mine does.
I am. *gulp* using an old 16 bit SoundBlaster "Live" card. I'd love to upgrade to a 24 bit sound card. I understand even a person recording at home can notice a big difference in the sound. Unfortunately no one in town stocks the one I'm looking for.
Originally posted by ybe

In CoolEdit you can check if the recorded files are clipped with Analyze/Statistics.
Here is an analysis of the TNKs at 0 db. It appears that nothing is clipped and CoolEdit Pro is reading the song at 0 db. So why does the file appear visually to be clipped? :confused: :confused:

[ybe]

Originally posted by miike

Here is an analysis of the TNKs at 0 db. It appears that nothing is clipped and CoolEdit Pro is reading the song at 0 db. So why does the file appear visually to be clipped? :confused: :confused:

Strange. Perhaps it clips when it goes through the reel to reel.

Originally posted by miike

I still don't know what it's for and what those levels mean. I just sort of know that if I open a .wav file and it's flat along the top at -30000, then the song was probably recorded to loud, or if it's from say, the lastest Rush CD, then it was compressed all to heck, digitally, to make our ears bleed.


That's the idea. I have the scale from 0 to 100% and Vapor Trails is 90-100% almost all the time.

[ybe]

Originally posted by miike

I do not have these drivers. I will head over there shortly. Thanks.

With kxdrivers you get improved playback quality through the Rear Out plug on your SBLive! card.

Full story here:

http://kxproject.spb.ru/rear.php?language=en

[Graham Start]

I still don't know what it's for and what those levels mean.


I'm at work as I type this, but I believe they are the sample values. You can change the scale to db or percentage.


I am. *gulp* using an old 16 bit SoundBlaster "Live" card. I'd love to upgrade to a 24 bit sound card. I understand even a person recording at home can notice a big difference in the sound. Unfortunately no one in town stocks the one I'm looking for.

Not all SBLive cards exhibit the built-in limiting. Creative has made so many millions of the damn things that there must be a hundred different revisions, each with their own quirks and features. But they all record internally at 48kHz, and resample on the fly. Their so-called 24-bit soundcards still record everything at 16-bit and convert during playback. Creative has yet to make any product worthy of serious audio work. Fine for games, but that's the end of it.

What exact card are you looking for? I use an M-Audio 2496, and I'm quite pleased with it. It's pretty easy to find here.

[Chris R]

OK. Markus. The Sony reel to reel is on the bus! :laugh:

IIRC, the reason I introduced the Sony into the chain of equipment was as mentioned, because of what Steve had previously said, AND, that I was getting some fairly low input levels from my previous Thorens TD-166 Mk II turntable. I wasn't big on recording a song from LP or 45 to the computer and then having to boost the wav file by 3 or 6 db. Ouch! So at least with the TC-399, I could adjust my levels prior to recording onto the computer.

Here is TNKs with Rega turntable, amp, straight into Cool Edit Pro. Jamie, you were right. :thumbsup: Now Tomorrow Never Knows peaks out at about -2 db without any reel to reel VU metre trickery. :) Gotta love those recording engineers. :D

[Grant]

Miike,

First, record as high as possible without going OVER 0. Don't worry about calibration. This is digital recording.

If you rip a CD track and it LOOKS like it is clipping, and you run a frequency analysis and it says it is not clipping, you are not clipping! Trust the numbers.


What you see on your waveform is known as maximizing. If you ripped that from a modern CD, it is typical of what they do tghese days. If you recorded that from your soundcard in real time, your soundcard is limiting your file. Soundblaster cards are notorious for this behavior.

That recording from the tape would not come off the tape that way. You must have some kind of limiting going on in your standalone deck.

[Chris R]

The Sony TC-399 was definitely doing something to the record levels. The last sample I posted peaked at -1 and looks to be about right, this time. Those other two wav files did not look right for sure.

Graham, I was looking to buy the newer sound card that M-Audio has out. It's called the Revolution 7.1 The closest place I can find it is at Kelly's Music and Computers (http://www.kellysmusic.mb.ca/productinfo.asp?id=1042125676) back home in Winnipeg. I may have to order it on-line from them. It's selling for $99. U.S. Guess I should take advantage of the strong Canadian dollar as it closed over 72 cents U.S. yesterday. Unless you know of a cheaper place in say, Toronto.

Thanks guys!. :thumbsup: :cheers: :nauga:

[Graham Start]

Saved By Technology has the 7.1 for $159 Cnd, so Kelly's is a bit cheaper... I'll do some more looking around here....

[JoelDF]

Mike, that Revolution 7.1 does not have any internal analog connections.

In other words, you would not be able to connect the audio out from a cd-rom/dvd-rom/cd-r drive to the soundcard.

You could still get digital audio through the OS if it's not that important to you.

I'm using a soundblaster live too, but still get the full 22,050Hz range when recording. My input recording level is maxed out and I've yet to hit 0-db. I've come close - usually with that loud "pop" as the needle drops into the groove at the lead-in area at the beginning of the LP. There are some LP's that are cut rather loud and record up to almost -1.5 db like Chuck Mangione's Children of Sanchez, Neil Diamond's I'm Glad You're Here With Me Tonight (believe it or not, but "Free Man In Paris" does hit pretty loud - Doug Sax mastered the LP), and several 12" singles I've got. Most of my LP's record around -4 to -3 db tops. But I always convert to 32bit and then normalize to about 98% after trimming the lead-in and lead-out pop and any other loud pop/click that might be there exaggerating the apparent loudest point in the recording.

Joel

[Graham Start]

Originally posted by JoelDF
[B]Mike, that Revolution 7.1 does not have any internal analog connections.

In other words, you would not be able to connect the audio out from a cd-rom/dvd-rom/cd-r drive to the soundcard.


This is true of any serious soundcard. The sound quality from the analog outs on most CD-ROM drives is HORRID. And as you say, since you can do this digitally through the OS, why would want to do a digital-to-analog-and-back-to-digital conversion anyway? I never understood the people who would spend $1,000 on a computer, and then use it primarily as the world's worst-sounding CD player...

I like M-Audio's philosophy. Whereas Creative tries to be all things to all people, M-Audio does not bother with mic inputs, crappy internal analog connections, lo-fi sound fonts, and other useless software. Because if you're serious about audio, you're certainly not going to use a soundcard's crappy mic amp, much less the noise-fest of internal analog connections. M-Audio knows this, cuts out the superfluous extras, and just gives you great A/D converters, reliable and low-latency drivers, low jitter levels, and most important of all, good sound.

If the consumer features of Creative cards still appeal to you, there's nothing stopping you from using both a Soundblaster and another soundcard (err... assuming you have an available PCI slot :) ).

[Graham Start]

Another point to keep in mind about levels... in addition to gain differences between preamps, different makes of cartridges have varying levels. Rega's carts are seriously loud (6.8mV!); I think the only others that are up there are DJ models. Most other MMs are around 3.5 - 4.0, and then the "high output" moving coils are below that. Below that you're firmly in MC territory and will need a step-up transformer.

[Damián]

Miike,

Below is a link to my very first post on this forum (completely uncalled for), which happens to be about Cool Edit, setting levels and needle drops :D.

I also use an SBLive! myself so that's one further reason it might prove interesting to you.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=154298#post154298

Hope it's of some help, I never knew whether it'd been of any use to anyone back when I posted it.

Regards, best of luck

Damián

[sgraham]

Originally posted by miike
..can someone please explain how to read recording levels in Cool Edit Pro, that I use for my needle drops. Those numbers on the right side of the program start at 0 and work their way out to -30000. What is that about?

Right click on those numbers and you will be able to change it to a dB setting which makes much more sense.


I have my Rega Planer 3 turntable running through my old analogue Hitachi HTA-7000 tuner/amplifier. Then I take the output from the amp to my Sony TC-399 1/4 track reel to reel machine, as that is the only component I have with VU metres. Steve mentioned recently that we should find the peak level on the record and make sure that that level does not go into the red.


As others have said, ditch the Sony. VU meters are useless for this sort of thing, and you want to minimized the amount of stuff in the audio chain for the cleanest sound. Use the virtual metering on Cool Edit. You can preset the level by double clicking on the record meter indicator at the bottom of the screen before recording.

Assuming you have a "standard" sound card, use the WIndows mixer to set the levels so that they NEVER get quite all the way up to zero. You can use the Windows mixer by double clicking on the little speaker icon in the Windows system tray (usually at the lower right of the screen). Choose Options/Properties to get to the recording controls. Make sure everything except the line input is muted or you'll get un-necessary noise. (If you have a pro-quality card it may come with its own mixing applet that is used instead of (or sometimes in conjunction with) the Windows mixer.)

If you still see clipped (flat topped) waves when you do this, then your Hitachi is probably overdriving the sound card's input. In that case you can either insert a resistive pad to drop the level going into the sound card a bit (knocking down the virtual fader on the Windows (or other) mixer won't help), or replace the sound card. If you get a pro quality card, though, be sure it has the option of recording at "-10", not only at the studio level of "+4", otherwise the level from the Hitachi may be too *low* to be optimal.


I miss my days in the radio recording studios where we could flick a 1K tone switch and set all VU metres accordingly. :sigh:

Me too. Nobody seems to have a clue how to line up the meters any more. But VU meters never were that much good as recording level indicators. It's not what they were designed for.