WB 1963-69 cartoons

[Joel1963]

This thread is inspired by the ongoing Fleischer thread. I love Leonard Maltin's Of Mice and Magic, and especially interesting is his dislike for the cartoons that followed the closing of the Warner cartoon studio in '63, and the production by DePatie-Freling, then also working on the Pink Panther cartoons for United Artists.

So, some questions for the animation experts out there:

1. Why was Bugs Bunny not used?
2. Any thoughts about the changed opening and closing Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies graphics? Maltin hates them, but I kind of like them, especially the widening Os (representing eyes) on the ending "A Warner Brothers Cartoon."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET-bytj4gcM
3. Why did Daffy Duck become, in Maltin's words, "a humorless villain on the prowl for Speedy Gonzales?"
4. Maltin thinks the Rudy Larriva-helmed Road Runners are the worst things about this series. They don't compare to the Chuck Jones-helmed Road Runners, of course, but they're not bad —I liked them when I was a kid. The Daffy-Speedy adventures are boring.
5. Sylvester was used, but he should have been used a lot more. I think he's my favorite WB character, the most human of all of them, ironically.
6. Porky Pig was used in just one cartoon. Why?
7. Why did Speedy Gonzales become the new Bugs Bunny-in prominence, that is?

[Steve Hoffman]

No comment except to say I hate them with a passion. As far as I am concerned, they do not exist. How's that?:D

[Joel1963]

No comment except to say I hate them with a passion. As far as I am concerned, they do not exist. How's that?:D

Fine with me...:)

[gd0]

Most any major-studio theatrical cartoon from 1960-on stinks out loud.

Diminished budgets, changing tastes and TV pretty much killed the Golden Age cartoon by then.

Can't answer your specific questions, but one guesses that the staff themselves felt that they couldn't do justice to Bugs at that time, and quietly retired him.

Everybody has different tastes, but it's impossible for me to imagine anyone viewing Baby Bottleneck (46) and a 60s Daffy-Speedy short together, and finding anything of merit in the latter.

While the former has the, uhhhhh, breath of life.

[indy mike]

The DePatie-Freleng and Format Films work for Warner Brothers is pretty repetitive in both the animation and the musical scores. The music sounds really cheap (a big letdown from the Warner orchestra with Carl Stalling and later Milt Franklyn handling the scores to being replaced by William Lava and the pretty thin/sparse sounding soundtracks he came up with), and the animation looks like 24 cels a second went out the window and was pretty much limited animation by the end of production). The Jones unit pretty much packed up and went over to MGM where the Tom and Jerry series was revived - no where near the quality of the shorts Hanna-Barbera produced, but far more handsome and better animated than the later Warner Brothers cartoons appeared.

[Andrew T.]

Call me crazy, but I've always had a soft spot for the 1960s Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies: They were in heavy rotation on Nickelodeon in the late '80s and early '90s, and I remember them fondly. The animation quality and music may not have been up to par for the series, but there were clever plots and gags that made up for that.

The Road Runners were always a favorite of mine, and while both Daffy and Speedy tended to be better off before being paired together, even they still had their moments: The scene in "Quacker Tracker" where Daffy Duck disguises himself as an enchilada was a very funny one indeed. :D

I'd like to see a disc on a future Golden Collection set devoted to the oft-forgotten cartoons of the 1963-69 timeframe: It would be nice to revisit short-lived characters like Cool Cat once again...

[gd0]

The Jones unit pretty much packed up and went over to MGM where the Tom and Jerry series was revived - no where near the quality of the shorts Hanna-Barbera produced, but far more handsome and better animated than the later Warner Brothers cartoons appeared.You forgot to mention that Jones' T&J were stupefyingly unfunny.


I've always had a soft spot for the 1960s Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies: They were in heavy rotation on Nickelodeon in the late '80s and early '90s, and I remember them fondly... Call me crazyTempting – no, I won't do that... :)

It's all too easy for me to forget that nostalgia plays a significant part in one's taste... no different for me – I grew up with the Golden-Agers, saw the Censored 11 routinely... when newer titles materialized, I wondered aloud: what happened to my cartoons?


I'd like to see a disc on a future Golden Collection set devoted to the oft-forgotten cartoons of the 1963-69 timeframeI'd never dissuade you from your faves, but I'd freak if they did that, anticipating tanked sales and discontinuation of the series... could I possibly ask you to wait til everything else was released and in my hands?... :D

J/K... they might do just that... there have been quite a few surprises on these box sets.

[billdcat]

Could the more use of Speedy Gonzales be due in part to the sucess of
Pat Boone's (with Mel Blanc) Hit single ?
In truth, I never cared for the rodent, no matter who produced
the cartoon.

And I shutter anytime I see one of these 1960's craptoons.
Cheap, poorly produced, and "NOT FUNNY" !

Awful, simply awful.

[indy mike]

You forgot to mention that Jones' T&J were stupefyingly unfunny.


Tempting – no, I won't do that... :)

It's all too easy for me to forget that nostalgia plays a significant part in one's taste... no different for me – I grew up with the Golden-Agers, saw the Censored 11 routinely... when newer titles materialized, I wondered aloud: what happened to my cartoons?


I'd never dissuade you from your faves, but I'd freak if they did that, anticipating tanked sales and discontinuation of the series... could I possibly ask you to wait til everything else was released and in my hands?... :D

J/K... they might do just that... there have been quite a few surprises on these box sets.

The Jones directed Tom and Jerry shorts were pretty bland in the story department. I think Jones didn't do a very good job in capturing any of the magic that Hanna-Barbera managed to produce time after time. Compared to the Gene Deitch directed Tom and Jerry shorts, the Jones directed cartoons look positively inspired. ;)

[tim_neely]

Almost all my initial exposure to the Warner Bros. cartoons came in the 1970s, pre-cable, from The Bugs Bunny-Road Runner Hour on CBS or from the various syndicated packages that aired on UHF stations (the A.A.P. pre-1947 set, the Warners 1947-59 set, and the 1930s/1940s Porky Pigs that were colorized in the 1960s and had the WB-7 Arts logo). The 1963-67 cartoons were rarely if ever aired in any of these collections, even on the CBS series, except for some of the Road Runners.

When I got the Beck-Friedwald book in the early 1990s, I read the plot synopses for the later cartoons, and they were as unknown to me as the Bosco cartoons from the early 1930s were. I had never known that Daffy and Speedy appeared in the same cartoons, nor had I ever heard of Cool Cat. I might want to see these some day out of curiosity.

[Joel1963]

The 1963-67 cartoons were rarely if ever aired in any of these collections, even on the CBS series, except for some of the Road Runners.

I remember just one with Speedy and Sylvester, from '65. Forget the title, though.

[Chip TRG]

The Jones directed Tom and Jerry shorts were pretty bland in the story department. I think Jones didn't do a very good job in capturing any of the magic that Hanna-Barbera managed to produce time after time. Compared to the Gene Deitch directed Tom and Jerry shorts, the Jones directed cartoons look positively inspired. ;)

True. Even as a kid, everytime one of those Deitch T&J's would come on, I could sense that something was just very very strange about them. The strange soundeffects, the weird movements, and the fact that the big heavy-set guy who appeared in some of them just made these strange noises instead of talking.

The Jones' T&J's were indeed a little lacking in the laughs, but they were a breath of fresh air to a series that had seen much worse only a few years before.

Here's a Deitch for those of you who don't remember them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooiq800E49w

[MrPeabody]

All these haters.... :shrug:

Y'all are missing the boat if you pretend these don't exist. This one from 1962 is required viewing for any Chuck Jones fan. One of the most surreal things he ever did, as well as a Treg Brown audio tour-de-force.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WiIO1qsO7W8

[Aftermath]

Amazing how, as late as 1961, Warner Bros was still making works of art (in my book).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9NfPGu8ixA

[MarkTheShark]

I would like to see all the Warner Bros. cartoons available eventually (indeed, all classic cartoons in general).

I have a soft spot for the later shorts, basically as a "curiosity" -- something out of the ordinary, off the beaten path.

I do remember watching them on TV as a kid...I never noticed the difference between the "classic" Road Runner cartoons and the later ones, but by the time The Daffy Duck Show premiered on NBC, it was clear that these were a lesser batch of cartoons.

One very telling moment: I was watching some tapes of WB cartoons with my nieces (they were 4 and 7 at the time, I think). One of the cartoons with the zooming WB shield started. One of the girls remarked how the ones that started that way were better. You can't fool these kids.

[All Rights]

Warren Foster and Michael Maltese left Warner Bros in the late 50s to join Hanna-Barbera,leaving WB cartoons of the 60s void of their great storywriting. Although Tedd Pierce did hang around Warners a few more years.

[Joel1963]

All these haters.... :shrug:

Y'all are missing the boat if you pretend these don't exist. This one from 1962 is required viewing for any Chuck Jones fan. One of the most surreal things he ever did, as well as a Treg Brown audio tour-de-force.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WiIO1qsO7W8

This is weird. I thought those opening and closing graphics started in '63. Maybe Warners meant them for more experimental cartoons.

[reechie]

All you need to see is the name "Bill Lava" in the credits, and you know you can spend that six minutes doing something much more constructive. Lava took over for Carl Stalling as music director, and rather than scoring each cartoon, he just started using the same library music over and over again. Another reason to avoid these cheap shorts.

[JBStephens]

Well, bear in mind, early cartoons were made with adults and movie theatres in mind, while the later cartoons were made with kids and television in mind. Although the output quality was sometimes inexcusable, it was at least understandable.

[stereoptic]

Fine with me...:)
+1 especially that one with all of the characters in a race. Truly awful
Chuck Jones had a couple of abstract UPA inspired ones that were at least innovative in that time period, though.

[Dan C]

True. Even as a kid, everytime one of those Deitch T&J's would come on, I could sense that something was just very very strange about them. The strange soundeffects, the weird movements, and the fact that the big heavy-set guy who appeared in some of them just made these strange noises instead of talking.

The Jones' T&J's were indeed a little lacking in the laughs, but they were a breath of fresh air to a series that had seen much worse only a few years before.

Here's a Deitch for those of you who don't remember them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooiq800E49w

I hate to admit that I sort of like those. Kind of surreal and trippy. They certainly don't hold up well against the classic Hanna-Barbara toons, but least they weren't tired and boring like the Chuck Jones T&J.

There was one in particular, 'Dicky Moe', that used to creep me out a bit as a kid. :)

dan c

dan c

[Anthology123]

It was probably some marketing decision to do so, with the success of lower quality animation like Rocky and Bullwinkle. Ironically, RAB was much funnier than the 60s Looney Tunes ever were. Maybe they tried to play the same tune with lower grade animation and simpler music. What WB did not do is step up the writing, which didn't even come close to RAB. Rocky and Bullwinkle, Fractured Fairy Tales, were some of the best cartoons of the 60s.

[indy mike]

It was probably some marketing decision to do so, with the success of lower quality animation like Rocky and Bullwinkle. Ironically, RAB was much funnier than the 60s Looney Tunes ever were. Maybe they tried to play the same tune with lower grade animation and simpler music. What WB did not do is step up the writing, which didn't even come close to RAB. Rocky and Bullwinkle, Fractured Fairy Tales, were some of the best cartoons of the 60s.

The Ward cartoons were very pun-filled, and the voice work of June Foray, Bill Scott, Paul Frees and the uncredited Daws Butler was excellent. As mentioned in an earlier post Warner Brothers best writers jumped ship and went to Hanna-Barbera when they set up their own studio after MGM closed down their animation studio. Ward had previously done the original B&W Crusader rabbit series, and the plots were broken into serial type stories that lasted over multiple episodes ala the later Rocky/Bullwinkle series. Ward's animation was pretty crude compared to even the work of the lesser studios like Lantz or Terrytoons in the 50's on, but the dialogue was much, much better than Lantz or Terry/later CBS got. Part of the crude animation for Ward was budget driven (very tight), part was due to it being mainly farmed out to Gamma Studios in Mexico which was started from scratch for the series. Gamma had pretty crummy equipment, and was extremely disorganized until Ward sent folks down from the U.S. to improve the qulaity control of the work. The earliest Bullwinkle episodes were loaded with goofs and errors; over time Gamma improved and the work was smoother and synched better with the soundtracks. Some of the Fractured Fairy Tales were animated in Hollywood, and you can spot the leap in quality pretty easily.

[reechie]

True. Even as a kid, everytime one of those Deitch T&J's would come on, I could sense that something was just very very strange about them. The strange soundeffects, the weird movements, and the fact that the big heavy-set guy who appeared in some of them just made these strange noises instead of talking.
The absolute worst franchise character cartoon I've ever seen was Deitch's The Tom And Jerry Cartoon Kit! :wtf:

[tim_neely]

This is weird. I thought those opening and closing graphics started in '63. Maybe Warners meant them for more experimental cartoons.
The first time they were used were on that cartoon. It's on DVD on the Warner Bros. Home Entertainment Academy Award Animation Collection, the 3-DVD version.

(By the way, my current avatar is a screen shot from it.)