Guests ordering kinescopes of their performances back in the day

[Matt W.]

Hi,

I realize that most television history up until the 1970s is lost because television programs were viewed as a disposable medium. My question is this. How common was it for guests (on a television program) to order kinescopes of their performance to retain in their archives? Were these archives excerpts or full episodes?

Thanks,
Matt.

[Chris A]

Hi,

I realize that most television history up until the 1970s is lost because television programs were viewed as a disposable medium.

Thanks,
Matt.

I think the technology (kinescopes were awkward and costly) had more to do with this than any notion of television being a "disposable" medium. Was it any more disposable than radio?

The mindset was different back then. We were not as conscious of the importance of preserving the past as we are now.

[reechie]

Pretty much the only episodes of Hullabaloo that exist on color videotape are the ones hosted by Jerry Lewis, who apparently had getting a copy of any show he appeared on written into his contract. All the other episodes are black and white kinescopes.

Similarly, there's an episode of The Tonight Show from just before Johnny Carson took over, guest hosted by Groucho Marx, that exists on video tape only because Groucho himself requested a copy. He wanted that particular episode because his daughter Melinda appeared on the show with him.

[Drawer L]

I'm not gonna say who exactly,but I know of a member of a group that has EVERY TV appearence his group made because he asked for a copy everytime they did a show.Whole episodes of shows that otherwise don't exsist.......

I've also heard all of the episodes of Where The Action Is that circulate,are because of people on the show getting kines....

[bencasey]

I know Allan Sherman got copies of many of his appearances and his son donated them to UCLA. Included are clips of him guest hosting the Tonight Show a few times in the early 60s. Not the full shows but generous portions. And we all know how rare NY Tonight shows are, especially with guest hosts. Also supposedly Hugh Hefner had his own 2-inch tape machines and recorded anything that aired related to Playboy. No ones knows what he has in his library, other than the obvious :winkgrin:

[apileocole]

I'm afraid it seems that such things were uncommon, and whether or not whole episodes were collected varies case by case.

As you say, some shows exist today because someone specifically requested a copy be saved. Dinah Shore had most of her tapes saved after a point in the '50's, as she had stipulated in contract. Whole episodes. A huge list of people appeared on her show, as you might know, and thus their appearances were also saved. There's Jackie Gleason's stash of Honeymooners eps. There's a story about the only footage of the late great Clifford Brown being found... I think on a copy requested by someone also on the show? Soupy Sales show. Anyhow some of these stories might be found on this very forum, as there are a few folk knowledgeable in TV history in residence. :)

[il pleut]

a complete copy of the original tv drama of 12 angry men, (starring robert cummings), as presented in 1954 on cbs's westinghouse studio one came to light in 2003. it exists only because a noted attorney (samuel leibowitz?) requested a copy of the kinescope after seeing the show.

so the stuff is out there, and it does turn up occasionally. not often enough, unfortunately.

[bencasey]

Also many of the producers hung on the copies of stuff, as well as writers. It turns out that individuals were far better at retaining these things than the networks were. They didn't have the room and they didn't care. Of the 3 networks, CBS was by far the best, followed by NBC and then ABC. Funny thing is that when it came to preserving sports, ABC was the best then CBS with NBC being by far the worst. There's more NFL 1970s playoff games that aired on NBC residing in CBS's vaults than there are in NBC's.

[All Rights]

Also many of the producers hung on the copies of stuff, as well as writers. It turns out that individuals were far better at retaining these things than the networks were. They didn't have the room and they didn't care. Of the 3 networks, CBS was by far the best, followed by NBC and then ABC. Funny thing is that when it came to preserving sports, ABC was the best then CBS with NBC being by far the worst. There's more NFL 1970s playoff games that aired on NBC residing in CBS's vaults than there are in NBC's.

CBS had a lucky advantage. When their syndication arm (CBS Films) was, by FCC rule, spun-off in the early 70s, the new company Viacom not only supplied re-runs to hundreds of TV stations but aquired other production companies along the way until it was itself taken over by Sumner Redstone and became so large that it bought its former parent CBS back and the resulting company was later split into two: CBS Corporation and Viacom. Through their aquisitions they own or control Paramount (Television) CBS networks, MTV, Showtime as well as some former ABC and NBC Spelling Production shows through Republic and Worldvision. That's a lot of programming.

[Larry L]

I know Allan Sherman got copies of many of his appearances and his son donated them to UCLA. Included are clips of him guest hosting the Tonight Show a few times in the early 60s. Not the full shows but generous portions. And we all know how rare NY Tonight shows are, especially with guest hosts. Also supposedly Hugh Hefner had his own 2-inch tape machines and recorded anything that aired related to Playboy. No ones knows what he has in his library, other than the obvious :winkgrin:

I would love to see Allan Sherman.

[Larry L]

I would love to see Allan Sherman.

Thanks to Youtube...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sAmWwEIpbs

[Vidiot]

As you say, some shows exist today because someone specifically requested a copy be saved. Dinah Shore had most of her tapes saved after a point in the '50's, as she had stipulated in contract. Whole episodes. A huge list of people appeared on her show, as you might know, and thus their appearances were also saved.
One of my best friends manages Dinah Shore's video archives, and it really is a ton of amazing television history.

There's Jackie Gleason's stash of Honeymooners episode.
That turned out to be sort of a hoax. The shows were never lost; Gleason always had his own personal 16mm kinescopes of the "lost" shows. I think he let the legend grow just to increase their value, and then made an offer to Showtime in the 1980s, and got a lot of publicity out of it.

There's a story about the only footage of the late great Clifford Brown being found... I think on a copy requested by someone also on the show? Soupy Sales show.
I know a great Soupy Sales "lost shows" story. A buddy of mine knew Soupy in the 1980s. The old comedian was telling him that almost all his 1960s shows were gone. My friend said, "wait a minute -- I know the library guy at the ABC vault in New Jersey. Let me give him a call." Soupy said, don't bother -- I've tried, and they don't have anything.

My friend called, and the librarian said, "yeah, we get requests for that all the time. I don't have to even check -- I know we have no episodes of 'The Soupy Sales Show' in the vault. Everything's gone."

My friend asked: "Wait. Do you have any episodes of his other show, 'Lunch with Soupy'?"

The guy said he'd check, and a minute later he came back on the line and said, "I'll be damned. We have about 60 16mm prints. Where do you want them shipped?"

When he told Soupy this, the man actually cried, he was so glad to know that at least some of his work survived. That's one of the happier stories. There's a thousand others that are much sadder, where everything got taken out to a landfill and buried forever.

So sometimes, shows get lost simply because they're misfiled, or they're vaulted under a different name. This is what happens when people who know nothing about television work in a TV vault (or movies, or even worse, the music business).

[balzac]

I'm curious about something in general when it comes to archived material in vaults of the networks (or other companies) that still exists. Obviously, there are often any number of roadblocks to releasing this stuff both in terms of licensing and royalties, and whether a release of a given item is economically viable. But how often if ever would the keepers of this material be willing to provide copies to the actual stars (or others involved in making the material, i.e. directors, etc.) for their own personal use/enjoyment? In other words, when it comes to something like the Soupy Sales story above, would ABC have made any copies of any of the material for Soupy Sales just as a kind gesture or professional courtesy? Or would even that be a problem either in terms of cost or copyrights? I'm sure strictly speaking, copying the material for anybody would not be allowed unless that person actually held some sort of rights to the material.

These days, the biggest stars that produce or otherwise have a stake in their work have easy access to such material (not that there is as much of a need to go searching through the vaults for something that airs on TV today).

I'm just thinking that, if Paul McCartney called up EMI and said he wanted them to copy him a few reels of session tapes for his own enjoyment/amusement, they would probably do it even though EMI owns the tapes. (In that case, they cannot release material without McCartney and Apple's okay, but they probably have no obligation to allow anybody to have copies of material for no particular reason.) Would that sort of courtesy have been given to a Soupy Sales or someone along those lines?

[ROLO46]

The BBC telerecorded monochrome 16mm copies of all shows for legal reasons
These were stored for years in a large ex jam factory
When tape came along many were skipped and employees liberated them from the skips in 2400' film cans
This the beeb disaproved of and banned
However years later they asked for them back ,under an amnesty, to improve the library.

I love these old recordings which turn up filleted on BBC4
I would prefer to see the complete shows rather than comps

Roger
omho

[SoundAdvice]

I'm not gonna say who exactly,but I know of a member of a group that has EVERY TV appearence his group made because he asked for a copy everytime they did a show.Whole episodes of shows that otherwise don't exsist.......

If you've read his coffee table book, autobiography or seen the Video Rewind VHS from the 1980's, Bill Wyman's name should be one of the first names to jump out at you.

Another source of tapes is techno junkies that got the first recorders in the late 60's early 70's. Warhol was given a prototype VHS recorder in 1966.

The NFL currently has a $1mil bounty for any footage of any kind of the first 2 Superbowls from the 1960's, they only have photos.

[SoundAdvice]

I'm curious about something in general when it comes to archived material in vaults of the networks (or other companies) that still exists. Obviously, there are often any number of roadblocks to releasing this stuff both in terms of licensing and royalties, and whether a release of a given item is economically viable. But how often if ever would the keepers of this material be willing to provide copies to the actual stars (or others involved in making the material, i.e. directors, etc.) for their own personal use/enjoyment? Or would even that be a problem either in terms of cost or copyrights? I'm sure strictly speaking, copying the material for anybody would not be allowed unless that person actually held some sort of rights to the material.

I think some places give out timecoded copies that can't really be shown on TV or sold commecially.

[Matt W.]

I think some places give out time-coded copies that can't really be shown on TV or sold commercially.

Actually, I think they usually only give out timecoded copies (known as screeners or research copies) to:

a) Family members of performer
b) Researchers
c) Professionally affiliated companies who would lease the footage. (One uses the time-code to select which parts of the footage one wants.)

[MMM]

So sometimes, shows get lost simply because they're misfiled, or they're vaulted under a different name. This is what happens when people who know nothing about television work in a TV vault (or movies, or even worse, the music business).

Sometimes things have survived because they were misfiled or even unlabeled, either because they were lumped with something to be saved, or they didn't know what it was and might have been afraid of dumping something they felt shouldn't be.

[SoundAdvice]

Actually, I think they usually only give out timecoded copies (known as screeners or research copies) to:

a) Family members of performer
b) Researchers
c) Professionally affiliated companies who would lease the footage. (One uses the time-code to select which parts of the footage one wants.)

I know someone that does interviews on TV over the past 15 years. He has timecoded copies of the UNCUT(raw footage) interview as it happened in real time.

[RDK]

I think the technology (kinescopes were awkward and costly) had more to do with this than any notion of television being a "disposable" medium. Was it any more disposable than radio?

The mindset was different back then. We were not as conscious of the importance of preserving the past as we are now.

Exactly, Chris.

I think it's easy to forget just how much programming was out there, and to put the onus on the networks and/or producers to preserve all of it is wrong - though it's obviously unfortunate in many cases. It's not so much that it was considered "disposable" but that it was "renewable." One doesn't regularly record the nightly news, for example, since it'll be on again tomorrow. And who'd want to see "old" shows anyway when new ones are on all the time. ;)

Consider just 3 networks airing only 3 hours of primetime programming each night. That's 270 hours each month; 3240 each year; 32,400 each decade, and 162,000 (!) hours of programming in the first 50 years of TV history. :o And that's a very conservative number.

[SoundAdvice]

Have networkd ever PAID to re-aquire copies of tapes they don't have in their archives beyond a handful of extreme examples?

[Vidiot]

But how often if ever would the keepers of this material be willing to provide copies to the actual stars (or others involved in making the material, i.e. directors, etc.) for their own personal use/enjoyment?
I think most stars don't care that much about their legacies. They might watch their talkshow appearance once, and then they move on to the next thing. They're basically too busy having a career to worry about amassing tape copies of everything they do.

Have networks ever PAID to re-acquire copies of tapes they don't have in their archives beyond a handful of extreme examples?
Yeah, that happens all the time. There have been some cases where studios and networks have sued collectors (or consulting companies) for owning films and tapes, but in general -- outside of feature film outtakes -- I think the studios are more interested in getting good copies rather than suing people. But there are always accepted.

As long as the new owner of the tape or film can prove that they found it in a trashcan or in a dumpster (or they bought it legally, like from a bankrupt warehouse), the collector owns the physical material.

[RetroSmith]

I remember reading that when TBS bought the syndication rights to "Leave It To Beaver", they wanted to show the pilot episode. They searched and searched using the "Beaver" name, but they found nothing, not even a kinescope.

Then, someone thought of searching everything done by Barbara Billingsly (who was in the pilot) and they found the actual 35 mm Black and white Negative of the Pilot, in mint condition. It had been misfiled under her name as a solo TV appearance.

[bencasey]

I remember reading that when TBS bought the syndication rights to "Leave It To Beaver", they wanted to show the pilot episode. They searched and searched using the "Beaver" name, but they found nothing, not even a kinescope.

Then, someone thought of searching everything done by Barbara Billingsly (who was in the pilot) and they found the actual 35 mm Black and white Negative of the Pilot, in mint condition. It had been misfiled under her name as a solo TV appearance.


Or perhaps filed under the show on which it aired, Studio 57 and the title, It's a Small World.

[il pleut]

there's also the case ernie kovacs. after his death, his wife, edie adams, discovered that abc was erasing and reusing the videotapes of his shows. she went to great expense to buy any survivng examples of his work that she could find. i believe they reside in the ucla television archives. it's thanks to her that we have as much kovacs as we do.