sub-woofer: yes or no?

[christopher]

i may get flamed for this, but, i'm i the only one who dislikes the sound of sub-woofers?

aside from the fact that i live in an apartment building with neighbors whom i like, i find the sound too boomy and dislocated. unconvincing, frankly.

in my current set-up, all my speakers, with the exception of the center channel, are full range. the front mains possess 12" woofers (rated @ 100 watts) and the surrounds 8" (rated @ 60 watts). my receiver puts out 120 watts into 6 ohms. that's more than enough power for me with some to spare.

in my A/V receiver's (pioneer elite VSX-37tx) set-up mode you have a choice of selecting whether or not you're going to connect a sub-woofer. if not, the bass is relagated to the mains. no bass signal is lost, merely redirected. this choice is not available with the surrounds, including the center channel. basiclly, that tells me the surrounds are essential and a sub is superfluous.

of course, routing audio signal is a very individual preference. there are many ways the achieve the same goal.

with regard to comments made in other threads in progress in this forum, i am not of the mind that if i have 6 speakers they must all be used or i will feel cheated otherwise. i love 2-channel music, too. however, and particularlly if you playback movies, you're cheating yourself by not having surround speakers in your set-up; missing out on sound.

and i can assure you, i am not a corporate schill for the home theatre industry.

later, chris

[Jeffrey]

Hi Chris,

You intro my internal battle over the last 18 months of what direction (format) to take my stereo set-up. I started w/ the idea that home theatre was were it's at & could meet my video & music needs. Scored the Onkyo 787 a/v receiver w/thx and about $2,000 of Polk speakers. Got the Polk 1000's for my mains b/c they have built in subs & the format of a left & right sub sounds better to me than using a solo separate. My video desires have been satisfied but good ole' music just isn't where I want it. :mad: After spending about $5,000, I have decided the only way I will be happy is to have two separate systems. Do ya smell the plastic melting? :)

Jeffrey

[Sckott]

You have every right to feel that a sub might not be the best thing for you. It's all about preference and the music you listen to. Some people might benefit from something that can punch a little, while not being loose and brain-rattling. I have an SAS powered "bazooka" tube in my car, and I couldn't be happier with it, especially since most speakers in cars have only a very shallow space for drivers, leaving only mids to high ranges.

I'm not employing a sub at this time to my main system either. I have large electrostatic speakers capable of a complete full range. I may change my mind, so could you. A sub doesn't need to be important, but in some applications it can be quite convincing!

A sub doesn't have to unlodge the fillings in your teeth. It merely has to give punch to kettle drums, kick drums and some flair to bass strings. If you have found happiness, stick with it and be glad you're not someone who's still chasing after his sound!

[JohnnyK]

This is my subwoofer story.. My front speakers are Linn Tucan mini-monitors. Initially I used a NHT subwoofer with a remote NHT subwoofer amp. I never liked the sound of the NHT subwoofer---too boomy, too uncontrolled sounding and it didn’t integrate well with the Linns. One day I decided to hook up one of my 26 year old AR 3a speakers (12” woofer) to the NHT amp and was very pleased with the result. The AR 3a speakers were always known for deep, well controlled and non-boomy bass. Plus, since the AR 3a speakers were designed for music and not movie special effects, they work well with the Linn speakers. In addition, they also sound good when listening to movies.

[pigmode]

This may or may not have to do with the ultimate qulities of subs.

Years ago I tried to replace my L100s with an early M&K sat/sub system. A couple of months later I sold the M&Ks and just replaced the old deteriorated JBL bass drivers (again). I suspect that subs are much more sensitive to room placement than is normally thought. My next units will be full-range.

[Unknown]

For all:

How are you defining "full-range"? How low does it have to go, with how much roll off?

[GregM]

Mine are capable of going below 30 Hz, probably roll off closer to 40 Hz, and I have no desire for a sub. Lots of "real world" considerations must be taken into account, not just in regard to your polks, but in terms of room factors and how close your speakers are to your walls. Steve can probably give you the best advice of all--hope he weighs in.

[Andrew]

Yes to subs. They sound good even on my modest system: Infinity speakers, Technics sub powered by dbx amp, Monster Cable. :cool:

[Steve Hoffman]

I Never use a sub. I can never, ever get them to integrate with the rest of the sound. I can always detect the mismatch.

The last time I used a bass tone sweep on a system with a sub, I was pissed off when I measured 30 (count 'em, THIRTY) little dB variations in response
between 30 cycles and 400 Hz.

Impossible to use in my work. Too obviously flawed to enjoy when I'm not working.

Like a special effects matte-shot in a movie that doesn't work. That's ALL I notice; the shot not lining up properly. Spoils the movie for me.

(Example of a matte-shot in a movie that DOES line up: "The Wizard Of Oz" when they are running across the path at the top of the witches' castle. Just a painting, actually. But it works. Imagine if it was mis-aligned...)

Also, subwoofers scare my dogs....They just like "woofers". :D

[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Steve Hoffman ]

[pigmode]

Right, that's one of the things I was wondering about: intergration. What about frequency crossovers and such, where there is an overlap of which the bass driver on the sat and the sub are both producing the same frequencies? More potential anamolies are introduced where the top of subs range reaches into the directional category. Seems like it's hard to beat two well placed speakers.

[Dob]

Originally posted by Steve Hoffman:

Like a special effects matte-shot in a movie that doesn't work. That's ALL I notice; the shot not lining up properly. Spoils the movie for me.

(Example of a matte-shot in a movie that DOES line up: "The Wizard Of Oz" when they are running across the path at the top of the witches' castle. Just a painting, actually. But it works. Imagine if it was mis-aligned...)



Steve - surely you jest! Are you saying that if that one castle shot matte didn't line up, it would have RUINED the movie for you? The Wizard of OZ? Jeez, you are tough...

I have a question for you. Let's assume that the castle shot doesn't line up. You are an engineer assigned to "restore" The Wizard of Oz, and you have the technology to digitally fix that matte so that it tracks perfectly. Would you do it? Or would you respect the "original mix" and leave it alone?

[FabFourFan]

Originally posted by Steve Hoffman:
I never use a sub. I can never, ever get them to integrate with the rest of the sound. I can always detect the mismatch.


I use an 18" Velodyne sub for each channel, placed adjacent to the main speakers for each channel.

Yeah, the subs take up a lot of space, and yes, integration IS still a bitch.

But I _want_ to hear "the bottom octave"; when it's not there, I truly miss it.

And without the subs, my playback system could hardly be expected to reproduce 40 Hz and below at any useful level.

As always, YMMV. Subs aren't for everyone, or for every system.

Just MHO!

[Steve Hoffman]

Best sub I ever used was the Carver Sunfire, (or was it Starfire?) Any way, it worked pretty well with my old Maggie 3.5's. Just used it for the bottom octave.

Honestly though, the rumble from records and Nat "King" Cole's breathing into the mic really scared the crap out of my dogs so I sold it. I couldn't stand to watch Scruffy and Tatters sit and tremble. It had to go.

My big pair of Tannoy Lancasters have a dual concentric 15" in each enclosure. That takes care of the bottom octave. And LEMME TELL YA: Once you hear what it is supposed to sound like down there, integrated perfectly, it ruins you for anything else. One of the reasons I keep a 40 year old pair of speakers around!

Gotta go to sleep now....
:)

[ November 02, 2001: Message edited by: Steve Hoffman ]

[Unknown]

I have a practical question -- what sounds exist between 20 and 40 Hz? I understand the low E string of a bass is 40 - 42 Hz. (Unless you tune like Doug Pinnick has on the last two King's X albums...but I digress.)

Anyway, I understand pipe organs and some percussion lives in that range. In fact, it seems like I've read that pipe organs go to 15 Hz or so. What else? And if you listen primarily to classic pop/rock albums (no techno, dance, or rap), do you really need to go below 40 Hz? Just curious.

[Todd Fredericks]

I use an M&K 125 mkII sub in my system and I'm happy with it. It adds a nice punch/pulse to music and films. I have it set at a modest level and it isn't too "boom-boom". It drives me crazy when a sub is too loud and over powers what's left of the music (especially cars speeding by in NY at 4AM). How long is a low bass tone? 56 feet?

Todd

[BradOlson]

I get along just fine without a subwoofer.

[Sckott]

Originally posted by Patrick M:
....Do you really need to go below 40 Hz? Just curious.

Well, I don't know about anyone's preference, but if the plants don't twitch when I play the 1st 20 seconds of Pink Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon.... ;) But if you're using a good pair of well placed full range speakers, you should be okay.

It's only about preference. Sometimes when it's in a home theatre setup, you want to feel the dinos SLAM on Steven Speilgerg's Jurassic Park. Sometimes you want to hear a lot of airy boom on an acoustic bass. The crossover can do (almost) anything you tell it to, either loosely move some air, or punch. I use Joe Walsh's "Life's Been good" for example. That's my favorite punch sound. If the sub makes a noticeable difference in the kick drum, I like it.

[Unknown]

Originally posted by Steve Hoffman:
The last time I used a bass tone sweep on a system with a sub, I was pissed off when I measured 30 (count 'em, THIRTY) little dB variations in response
between 30 cycles and 400 Hz.

Steve, how do you measure this?

[Unknown]

I hadn't even considered the home-theater angle...

So here's my question again, stated slightly differently --

If the low string of a bass guitar is 40 Hz and you're listening to some reasonable slab of rock 20 - 40 years old, do you really need to dip down below 40 Hz? (Assuming your system is flat to 40 Hz and moves enough air that you can feel what's going on.)

Someone please shed some light on this question. It's had me curious for a while.

[Todd Fredericks]

Patrick,

I listen to all sorts of music (like we all do). Some stuff goes deep in bass, some don't. It depends on what works for you. I don't have the greatest speakers in the world (Paradigm Studio 20's). They have nice imaging but don't produce deep, clean bass. A few years ago I listened to a lot of subs in my price range and got an amazing deal on the M&K 125 mk II. For my needs, it works very well with my system. How can I describe the improvement? Music seems to play with less effort and strain. Everything seems much rounder/fuller. I hear bass notes with a lot more clarity and drumkits sound more realistic. It's very difficult getting a sub to sit well in a system (there's a natural tendency to crank it a few DB's too loud/sub, power, sub) but once you get the right balance it can work great (movie soundtracks is another story). I think fantastic full range speakers (with a good room/etc.) do not need a sub. A friend of mine's father had a custom designed Cello system and now a tweaked Red Rose mondo-supremo (no other words for it) tube system (he's been friends with Mark L. since 1968) and the music sounds incredibly full and lifelike. So what am I trying to say? Maybe demo a sub and see (or hear) if it increases your listening enjoyment. For me, it has with the equipment I'm using now. In the future, maybe I won't have a need for one...

Todd