Cartridge or Phono stage?

[emkay]

Hey posters -- I've got a situation that is probably pretty common to alot of you out there owing to the popularity of some parts of my setup.

I'm looking at upgrading the sound of my turntable -- I currently have a P3 with Rega Elys (2?) cartridge. I do not use a separate phono stage -- my preamp is the one built-in to my receiver which is a Rotel RX-1052.

The problem I have is common -- the sound is a bit "etched" (hope I'm using the word right), things are a little distorted and screechy when there's alot of treble and sibilants. I also think I'm suffering from a bit of inner-groove distortion, which seems to be a common complaint with this cart. Honestly, it has smoothed out some with time and I believe the sound used to have this character a bit more pronounced. But I've lived with this for about a year and a half now and I'm resigned that it won't get better and I think my ears are ready for a better experience. In fact, I'm really starting to crave it.

So I checked out an area dealer of such electronic goodness today and explained my sitch. I was directed to the Benz Micro Ace. That kinda threw me because it is a $550 cart. True, the Rega is like $250 and I was discussing an upgrade. But that sounds like too much cart for my humble system, so I inquired about something priced between the Elys and the Ace and the oft discussed Dynavector 10x5 came up (I'm not sure, but I may have brought it up myself).

There was also some discussion generally that it might not be the cart -- perhaps the preamp is responsible for that which makes me unhappy. Fine. Whatca got? They then told me the turntable guru was out but he's the man to talk to so I left my cell number and this afternoon I got a call.

The guru's suggestion? The Rega cart is not known for the qualities I'm describing so I'd probably benefit from a phono stage upgrade. I can borrow something this weekend. This sounds pretty good to me.

But then I ask him, "about how much do the phono stages you are suggesting run?" He said about 900 bucks!

Now I realize that serious hifi can cost serious money, but I'm not looking to throw out the baby with the bathwater just yet. I just don't feel I can justify spending more on a phono stage than the cost of my CD player, TT plus cart, or the amp.

Can any experienced hands offer some advice on my predicament? Am I better off JUST upgrading the cart for now (perhaps to the Dynavector) or is the preamp a better plan. If so, can somebody recommend a reasonably priced item? It doesn't have to be the least expensive available, but there has to be a stop on the road somewhere before I drop a grand.

Help me make my ears happy! BTW - I'm also open to exploring more shops in the NJ/NY area if anybody can make a solid recommendation. If a preamp is the answer, I may wish to find a vendor of less pricey wares, excellent though they may be.

Danke schoen

[cantona7]

I would start out trying a couple of different phono stages in your price range to see if the built-in phono stage is, indeed, the cause of what you're hearing. This is purely because I'm a fairly lazy kinda guy and I'll always go for the simplest solution first--it's far easier to switch out phono stages than it would cartridge. I'd look for stuff between $500 and $900 for starters. The Musical Fidelity XLP-S phono stage is pretty good for $500. I believe there's also the Project Tube Box SE, the CI Audio stage and the Dynavector around that price range as well. This will help you figure if the on board phono if your receiver is up to the task. You might want to use an online vendor like Music Direct or Acoustic Sounds to try out these stages--many have a 30 day in-home audition policy.

IF the problem you're hearing persists, then you're left with the cartridge upgrade and that will be a separate conversation. In general, I prefer to spend as much as I can afford on a cart--it's the one part of your system that actually comes into direct contact with the grooves. But that's just IMHO. I use a Benz M2 Woody with my Scout, and I'm in general quite a fan of the Benz line. Good luck with your quest, but I'd start with the stages and go from there.

[emkay]

Some more info --

I don't know what these things mean, I provide them for the knowledgable to make informed judgments about the neccessity for a cart or preamp based on my current gear. Perhaps some kind soul can tell me if this is a poor match...

The Rega Elys cart output is 6.8 - 7.2mV

The input overload for the phono input on the Rotel RX-1052 is >120 mV

The input sensitivity/impedance for the phono input on the Rotel RX-1052 is 2.5 mV/47 kohms

[Fedot L]

...I also think I'm suffering from a bit of inner-groove distortion, which seems to be a common complaint with this cart...
As for "inner groove distortion", it's the "TRACING DISTORTION" proper fundamentally to the mechanical reproduction of ANY groove (and not only "inner") of gramophone record, and by ANY stylus, due to the difference between the forms of the cutter chisel and the stylus. But to a variable degree.
Explained briefly, for example, in:
http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?p=2978967&highlight=groove+distortion#post2978967
posts 103, 106, 110.
The only way to reduce it very considerably with "mechanical" cartridges: the use of styli designed and manufactured for CD-4 DISCRETE quadraphonic reproduction.
Or the use of laser vinyl record player.
Best regards.

[Ian Lascell]

Simple problem to solve, same as I had. Forget about the phono preamp for now and get the Dynavector 10x5 (or another suitable cartridge). The problem is with the Elys and your dealer is giving you the same bad advice many Rega dealers do about the Rega cartridges. The Elys is a poor tracker, gives sibilance on inner grooves, is bright and etched, and the midrange is lacking. Your ears are not lying to you. Trust them.

I replaced mine with the Dynavector 10x5 and I would whole-heartedly recommend it for pairing with a P3. But I have to imagine there are lots of choices out there that would easily top the Rega cartridge, so you have lots of choices. Here is the thread I started about installing the 10x5 which has some other info in it: http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=124824&highlight=Dynavector+10x5

A phono preamp upgrade will help get you more of the goodies from your cartridge. But I would rather address the problem closer to the source first, then if you do eventually upgrade the phono preamp, you will be able to realize the full benefits.

[emkay]

Simple problem to solve, same as I had. Forget about the phono preamp for now and get the Dynavector 10x5 (or another suitable cartridge). The problem is with the Elys and your dealer is giving you the same bad advice many Rega dealers do about the Rega cartridges. The Elys is a poor tracker, gives sibilance on inner grooves, is bright and etched, and the midrange is lacking. Your ears are not lying to you. Trust them.

I replaced mine with the Dynavector 10x5 and I would whole-heartedly recommend it for pairing with a P3. But I have to imagine there are lots of choices out there that would easily top the Rega cartridge, so you have lots of choices. Here is the thread I started about installing the 10x5 which has some other info in it: http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=124824&highlight=Dynavector+10x5

A phono preamp upgrade will help get you more of the goodies from your cartridge. But I would rather address the problem closer to the source first, then if you do eventually upgrade the phono preamp, you will be able to realize the full benefits.

Thanks Ian-

That tread is one of the ones I was reading with great interest, and I honestly hesitated at creating a new one since our situations are pretty similar. I take it you are pretty pleased with the improvement you are hearing so far, and that is reassuring. At this point are you feeling like there are still unresolved issued that may be related to your phono stage?

[AKA-Chuck G]

I agree with Ian. Plus the Rotel phono stages in their receivers are usually considered pretty good.

Is the Dynavector 10x5 considered a better cart than the Goldring 1022? I have been very happy with the 1022. (better than the 1012 I had initially)

[emkay]

I just scored a used (50 hrs) Dynavector 10x5 for $200, so my first move is pretty much a no-brainer.

Ian, did you ever come to a final resolution on your spacer situation?

[Ian Lascell]

I just scored a used (50 hrs) Dynavector 10x5 for $200, so my first move is pretty much a no-brainer.

Ian, did you ever come to a final resolution on your spacer situation?

Nice! 50 hours is nothing, it is still breaking in. I paid 10% off retail (around $340-350), so you did much better than me.

I am still using a single 2mm spacer and it sounds great. I would like to try another for a total of 4mm though, as this would put it at the same height as the Rega cartridge. My concern is that the nut under the table that fastens the tonearm will not have enough thread left on the tonearm to attach tightly. My other option, which I am strongly considering, is purchasing a VTAF so I have more freedom for adjusting the vertical tracking angle. This would also allow me to get the best sound out of all different vinyl weights/thicknesses, instead of just setting VTA once at a compromised spot. In any case, I do not feel in a rush to do anything since it sounds so good now.

As far as my phono stage goes... I am using the built-in phono stage of my McIntosh MX-110. It is warm and beautiful with lots of stuff, particularly midrange. But it can be vastly improved upon in areas of detail, overall dynamics, and bass slam. My next major upgrade will be to purchase a separate phono stage as I think this is the next logical place for me to improve my system. I am considering the Dynavector P75 phono preamp now after my great experience with the Dynavector cartridge. I figure wherever I end up going in analog, I will likely move up the Dynavector cartridge line and their phono stage will work well with the 10x5 but also can drive the lower-output versions of their higher-end cartridges.

[Ian Lascell]

At this point are you feeling like there are still unresolved issued that may be related to your phono stage?

Just wanted to add: Yes, there are still unresolved issues related to my phono stage. But not the issues you described with your P3/Elys combo. Those issues were addressed by the changing of cartridge. The phono preamp issues are totally different issues that are present regardless of which cartridge I have had installed.

[Sound Dust]

Great to see you've got the 10x5 with the P3 it really is a great combo and really shines. Now once it all settles in and if you feel like more, the Dynavector P75 phono stage is the perfect match.

[Macezeke]

... My concern is that the nut under the table that fastens the tonearm will not have enough thread left on the tonearm to attach tightly.

You can ease that concern by getting the Rega Extended Nut (http://www.musicdirect.com/product/72033) for not too much change. I have a Rega P25 with the Dynavector 10X5 and it's an excellent combo.

Hope this helps,

Mac

[PhillyFan]

Simple problem to solve, same as I had. Forget about the phono preamp for now and get the Dynavector 10x5 (or another suitable cartridge). The problem is with the Elys and your dealer is giving you the same bad advice many Rega dealers do about the Rega cartridges. The Elys is a poor tracker, gives sibilance on inner grooves, is bright and etched, and the midrange is lacking. Your ears are not lying to you. Trust them.

I replaced mine with the Dynavector 10x5 and I would whole-heartedly recommend it for pairing with a P3. But I have to imagine there are lots of choices out there that would easily top the Rega cartridge, so you have lots of choices. Here is the thread I started about installing the 10x5 which has some other info in it: http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=124824&highlight=Dynavector+10x5

A phono preamp upgrade will help get you more of the goodies from your cartridge. But I would rather address the problem closer to the source first, then if you do eventually upgrade the phono preamp, you will be able to realize the full benefits.


I second the 10x5 I have one on a Rega P3-24 and it sounds great

[Ian Lascell]

You can ease that concern by getting the Rega Extended Nut (http://www.musicdirect.com/product/72033) for not too much change.

Thanks Mac! :righton: I didn't even know such a thing existed.

[edb15]

What you report is a common complaint about Rega cartridges. There might be other causes, including overloading what must be a relatively mundane phono stage. One thing to try right away is increasing the tracking force a bit. That might make it track a bit better. Try .1 or .2 grams.

There is pretty much a consensus that the P3 works very well with the Dynavector, with the 2mm spacer. There is also consensus that it works very well with the Denon DL160 or DL110, each of which is under $200. And in England, the Goldring 1012/22/42 and their derivatives (Audio Note, Reson) are a typical match, though at today's exchange rate no longer so attractive to US buyers. If you want to go low output, the Denon 103 is a fabulous cartridge that you can get for $158 on ebay, and the 103R is a tad more open sounding for twice the price. If these were a new design, they would cost much more.

I don't think there is much reason to put any more into a cartridge for a Rega P3. Once you're talking $500 or more, you would do better with a P5 (or a used Linn, or some other non-consumable upgrade).

I also would hesitate on spending much on a phono stage when the same money could go into replacing your receiver with separates or a nice integrated with a good inbuilt phono stage. Something like an Exposure XV, a Linn Magik, a Naim Nait 3 (or 32/62/92 with 110 or 140) or one of the nicer Rega integrateds would do the trick.

If you do go for a separate phono stage, the Cambridge Audio for $180 is getting a buzz as a giant killer, and the Dynavector P75 is a winner (mk. I used for $3-350, mk. II new is $750).

[visprashyana]

The Rega cartridges are exactly how you describe them. This is an especially bad combination with a Rotel. The Dynavector is a great choice, it doesn't matter how much the cartridge is vs. the table at this point. Buy the best one you can then go from there. Of course, you would love a SimAudio phono stage. See if you can incorporate that into the system and you will love the results.

In regards to the same situation with the MX-110. I would get a step up and then see if you like that combination, but it is extremely warm and I would lean towards a German phono stage in order to bring out some of the detail and speed that is lacking in the unit. I used a variety of cones and cables in order to get the speed and detail I wanted.