How are YOU doing Bass Management for high-res audio?

[Michael St. Clair]

If you are a listener of high-res digital (DVD-A, SACD) audio, please share with us how you are currently performing bass management (BM).

Thanks!

[Gary]

I presume bass management is required for mini speakers (not full range) which require lower frequencies. For full range speakers, one does not need a sub.

Is this true?

[Michael St. Clair]

Gary,

If listening only listening to stereo, two full-range speakers would certainly suffice.

With 5.1, even if you had five full-range speakers, there is still bass that would be lost on most discs if you don't have a sub (or bass management that can route the .1 channel bass to the main speakers).

I would probably define full-range as flat down to at least 40-50hz. If you aren't listening to pipe organ or 'drum n bass' techno, then you would want something lower.

Bass Management is definitely an issue that affects more (most?) surround listeners, and fewer stereo-only (should really say two-channel-only) listeners.

[Strabo]

I guess the player does the bass management.
The only BM that I use is on the player by setting speaker size, if that even counts. It's more like "on" vs "off" than it is management.


I would probably define full-range as flat down to at least 40-50hz

Otherwise, my mains do all the work for the bass as they are full range.

[Michael St. Clair]

Strabo,

Do you mind if I ask what player you have?

I have a Yamaha DVD-S2300 (got it a few weeks ago, replacing a couple of older players). It does digital bass management for DVD-V and SACD, and has a crude analog bass management for DVD-A. Dealing with all 3 can be a bit of a pain getting everything set up well.

[Sckott]

My Rotel sends the pre singnal, mono, to the bow-wow. It has it's own onboard amp. The Rotel works as the crossover, BM, especially in 5.1.....

[Strabo]

Originally posted by Michael St. Clair
Do you mind if I ask what player you have?


It was the cheapest I could find until the format war is solved. Sony DVP-NC650V. Thought about upgrading. Then again, when don't I think about upgrading.:laugh:

[Dave]

Originally posted by Michael St. Clair
I would probably define full-range as flat down to at least 40-50hz. If you aren't listening to pipe organ or 'drum n bass' techno, then you would want something lower.
Michael, would my full-range speakers going down to 20hz be efficient enough and don't sub-woofers go down to 14-16hz?:confused: I really gotta learn this once and for all. Thx.

[Michael St. Clair]

Michael, would my full-range speakers going down to 20hz be efficient enough and don't sub-woofers go down to 14-16hz? I really gotta learn this once and for all. Thx.

Very few main speakers go down to 20hz...you have got some speakers!

Some subs go down to 14hz or so...you may not hear it, but it may move your floor joists!

Most subs go down to somewhere between 20 and 35hz. For music, especially rock/jazz, 30-40hz is about as low as most people need. If you want to feel the explosions when Bruce Willis and Arnold Schwarzenegger are jumping off buildings and such, you'd want lower than that.

[GoldenBoy]

I didn't vote because I don't think that there is an option that really suites me completely. I use the limited bass management features on my players (Sony C555ES CD/SACD, JVC XV-SA602 DVD-A/V) in combination with the crossover/level settings on my active sub (JBL PB 10) and, though not in the strictest sense bass management, the level settings on my receiver (Sony DA4ES), to achieve very satisfying and well balanced multichannel playback. It will become even less of a problem when I finally get around to replacing my front L/R speakers - which currently reach only 65Hz - with a new pair that will go down to 30Hz. I'll probably be doing this within a month or two. Currently, I have my SACD player set for 5 Large spk. w/ sub and for stereo mode 2-spkr. w/ sub. The DVD-A/V player is set for 5 Small w/ sub (unfortunately, it doesn't offer me the 5-Large w/ sub option). Using the individual settings on each player combined with whatever is available on the receiver and sub works pretty well for me. I don't really have much of a change from one format to the other.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Michael St. Clair
Gary,

If listening only listening to stereo, two full-range speakers would certainly suffice.

With 5.1, even if you had five full-range speakers, there is still bass that would be lost on most discs if you don't have a sub (or bass management that can route the .1 channel bass to the main speakers).

I would probably define full-range as flat down to at least 40-50hz. If you aren't listening to pipe organ or 'drum n bass' techno, then you would want something lower.

Bass Management is definitely an issue that affects more (most?) surround listeners, and fewer stereo-only (should really say two-channel-only) listeners.

Interesting, Michael!

My current experiment is putting my Advents to use. A pair of New Large Advents for R and L, a pair of Small Advents to RR and RL and a final set of Small Advents for Center and "Sub". As you probably know, all speakers have the same woofer / tweeter combinations, they are just in a smaller speaker box.

I don't want ground shaking bass as I live in a townhouse. And the 5.1 is in a spare bedroom. Hopefully, this will sound pretty good. We'll see...

The Panasonic RP-82 DVD-V & A player has "large speaker / small speaker" options which would help.

:cool:

[Michael St. Clair]

Gary,

I'm well used to having to make townhouse compromises, we lived in one for 1.5 years before our last move.


The RP-82 is a near-legendary player for its video quality. The audio quality is also pretty darned good, especially at that price point.

In fact, I own an RP-82, it's just not my current 'main' player. I owned an RP-56 before.

It is widely believed that the RP-82's bass management works on DVD-A. This is probably partially because several early buyers reported that it did. Unfortunately, the bass management in the RP-82 has zero, zilch affect on DVD-A playback; it only affects DVD-V.

Given your setup, this may or may not make a heck of a lot of difference. I would suggest comparing the DVD-A tracks on a couple of discs to the DD/DTS tracks (you can force the player into 'DVD-Video' mode in the menu and this will give access to these tracks until you reset the option or turn the player off. You'll want to have the player configured for Large front mains, small center, small surrounds, and sub. Don't try to compare dynamics and resolution, just listen to the balance of the bass on the DD/DTS tracks. That should give you an idea as to how the lack of BM may (or may not) be affecting your DVD-A playback. It could give you a rough idea of how adding something like an ICBM would affect your DVD-A playback...

[bbush32]

My Pioneer DV-47Ai just cut the LF off at 80Hz (?) when speakers are set to small witout routing the bass to the sub. I been considering getting the ICBM from Outlaw audio.

[sgb]

Multi-channel done optimally would have no bass management, and four sub-woofers, IMO.

I listen in stereo only, with two sub-woofers.

[Strabo]

I would think that 5 full frequency speakers and one or two subs depending on the room would do it.

For example, the review of DSOTM says at one point, only the bass guitar is located on the center speaker. I'm not sure how I'll do that one with my center only playing down to 75hz. I might be needing some bass management before I know it.

Using sbgs theory, wouldn't you then need a fifth sub for the center in this case?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Michael St. Clair
It is widely believed that the RP-82's bass management works on DVD-A. This is probably partially because several early buyers reported that it did. Unfortunately, the bass management in the RP-82 has zero, zilch affect on DVD-A playback; it only affects DVD-V.

Given your setup, this may or may not make a heck of a lot of difference. I would suggest comparing the DVD-A tracks on a couple of discs to the DD/DTS tracks (you can force the player into 'DVD-Video' mode in the menu and this will give access to these tracks until you reset the option or turn the player off. You'll want to have the player configured for Large front mains, small center, small surrounds, and sub. Don't try to compare dynamics and resolution, just listen to the balance of the bass on the DD/DTS tracks. That should give you an idea as to how the lack of BM may (or may not) be affecting your DVD-A playback. It could give you a rough idea of how adding something like an ICBM would affect your DVD-A playback...

What a disappointment! Thanks for the advice. I'll have to play around with it once I set everything up. Maybe the RP-82 will remain a DVD-V only set up and I'll try for proper surround in my other 'reference' system.

Another question. What is "ICBM"? It can't be Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile can it? ;) Inter-Contenental Bass Management? :sigh:

[Strabo]

Originally posted by Gary


What a disappointment! Thanks for the advice. I'll have to play around with it once I set everything up. Maybe the RP-82 will remain a DVD-V only set up and I'll try for proper surround in my other 'reference' system.

Another question. What is "ICBM"? It can't be Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile can it? ;) Inter-Contenental Bass Management? :sigh:

Wierd, hit submit and got a blank post. Try it again.

Integrated Controlled Bass Manager (http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/icbm_manual.pdf) for the .pdf file.

[Richard Feirstein]

The ICBM from Outlaw is a black box that goes between the 5.1 analog outputs of your SACD or DVD-A player (or between a 5.1 pre-amp and a 5.1 amp). It is far more flexible than any current bass management available in any SACD or DVD-A player. It lets you set each speaker for crossover frequency and even lets you integrate your sub with Stereo and mono material. (Most SACD players only perform bass management for multi-channel settings). Its use made a huge improvement in my system which feature "large front speakers" (Dahlquist DQ-10's and a center Cambridge speaker and cambridge side speakers, through a Denon 3802).

Richard.

[Gary]

Thank you Strabo and Richard! I've never heard of such a thing before!
:)

(Whatever happened to the good old days where the hardest thing to do was to make sure that your cartridge was aligned properly? I think I'm getting old and cranky...)

[JohnG]

I also use an ICBM for bass management on my DVDA/SACD players.

I use small bookshelf speakers tied into a large sub so I needed the ICBM to get realistic sound out of multi-channel recordings in DVDA or SACD.

It works great and is very unobtrusive.


JohnG

[sgb]

Originally posted by Gary
I presume bass management is required for mini speakers (not full range) which require lower frequencies. For full range speakers, one does not need a sub.

Is this true?

Actually, Gary, there are several schools of thought on whether or not a sub is needed. I tend to think that every system out there can benefit by the use of at least two subwoofers. I think the guy at the audio perfectionist site (see link below) has stated the case very well. When you get there, click on the link for the second journal PDF.

http://www.audioperfectionist.com/pages/freejournals.html

[GoldenBoy]

I notice that ICBM from Outlaw is referred to as bass management for 'digital audio'. Does that thing work on the analogue outs from SACD and DVD-A players? If so, does it convert the analogue signal to PCM or does it stay purely in the analogue domain?

[Michael St. Clair]

I notice that ICBM from Outlaw is referred to as bass management for 'digital audio'. Does that thing work on the analogue outs from SACD and DVD-A players? If so, does it convert the analogue signal to PCM or does it stay purely in the analogue domain?

It is a purely analog device - it doesn't digitize anything. It was created because of bass consideration concerns with high-res digital audio, but it is not a digital device. There is not a digital input, either - just a single set of 6-channel analog inputs; if you want to do DVD-A and SACD, you will need an external switcher (or a universal player).

[GoldenBoy]

Thanks for the info. I might consider buying one of those, considering the price. I do have the problem, however, of having two separate players, so that would be an additional expense for a quality switcher.

[JohnG]

Originally posted by GoldenBoy
Thanks for the info. I might consider buying one of those, considering the price. I do have the problem, however, of having two separate players, so that would be an additional expense for a quality switcher.

Believe it or not but simple Radio Shack switches work excellently without coloring the sound. I just press A when I'm listening to SACD and B when I listen to DVDA. A minor inconvienence. All the needed cables though is inconvenient ;)

JohnG