King Crimson (Baseless and Treble Flat)

[Unknown]

Sckott wrote:

"Some people might think the Japanese issues of Yes, The Kinks, King Crimson were crap, others might not think so."

Ah, that gets me started on a rant I wanted to post months ago. The Japenese KCs are a mixed bag in my opinion. In fact, each disc by itself can be a mixed bag.

1. In the Court of the CK - Overall pretty good, but I was utterly annoyed at 21c Schizoid Man. That drop out on the remastered cut is more abrasive than foundry sand in a pair of Speedos. (And no, it can't just be me - I have had three CDs of this album *prior* to the 30th anniversy remaster, but the drop out is both on the new Virgin and the Japanese release.)

2. In the Wake of Poseidon - Was pleased with this disc, but then my point of comparison was an old CD put out by JEM.

3. Lizard - They emasculated the bass on Cirkus. This where the 1989 Def. Ed. wins out. The rest of the tracks are so-so, coming dangerously close to sounding compressed. The only track that stands out sonically is the Battle movement on the title track.

4. Islands - Emasculated bass here, too. Formentera Lady really thumped on the '89 Def. Ed. but not here.

5. Lark's Tongue - acceptable but not earth shattering.

6. Starless and Bible Black - ditto

7. Red - Ugggh. Bright.

That's my take on the Jap reissues of the classic seven. I haven't bought the eighties titles. I could never get into the 80s stuff so the Jap. reissues of these are low priority for me.

Anyway, should a KC fan pick up the Jap reissues? Well, I do appreciate the xtra packaging and restored artwork, but I haven't let go of my '89 issues just yet either.

[TommyTunes]

I know this is not what you wanted to hear but IMO the Japanese reissues are the best of all the CD versions that I have heard. However, unfornutely they do not even come close to the sound of the original UK Island LP's. As far as ITCOTKC goes I've compared the Pink Island to all the other issues including the MFSL, EG 1/2 speed etc and the Island label is significantly better. Same goes with all the other titles.

They just for the record alot of the kids who have seem KC open for Tool on their European and select legs of the US tour have been blown away by KC. I expect to see a whole new legion of fans emerge.

I can also highly recommend their Disciple Global Internet fan club releases. The sound ranges from excellent to bootleg quality BUT there are some great performances.

[Unknown]

By the way, Robert Fripp (as much as I admire him as a musician/composer) is a remastering engineer's arch-nemesis and worst nightmare. His has stated that musical works are organic and evolving --including recorded pieces. Fripp has no problem with changing history. He would drive someone like Steve utterly insane.

[Sckott]

Anyone have the 24K Gold Virgin issue? I have the "Definitive EG" and it sounds OK (Also the EG "Collectors Edition" vinyl sounds good I thought)

If anyone has that more expensive issue, let moi know. I might buy the f**ker. I'm sure sonically that album went though the ringer in post prod or something.

[Drew]

Sckott,

I have a copy of the Japanese Gold ITCOTKC which I haven't opened. I didn't know there is a difference in the remastering between it and the standard American aluminum plated mini-lp 30th anniversary rerelease that came out a year or two ago.

I hear alot of talk about Japanese imported Crimson cd's. Are they different from the 30th anniversary editions?

Don't know if I want to part with it because I'm a big Crimson fan.

I have no idea what the connection is with Tool, tho. ;)

[christopher]

Originally posted by Drew:

I have no idea what the connection is with Tool, tho. ;)[/QB]


they share a recording engineer named david bottrill.

check out a great mag/fanzine called "TAPE OP" (website: www.tapeop.com). (http://www.tapeop.com).) they had a bottrill interview some months ago.

later, chris

[Drew]

Yeah, the name looks familiar, but I'm talking about in the creative sense.

[christopher]

this thread comes at a good time for me since i'm in the process of buying/upgrading my crimso CD collection. thanks to everyone for their advice/reviews.

i have the three 80's upgraded HDCD's and they sound pretty good to me. i got a dutch import LP of "discipline" when it came out in late '81 and the sound on that disc was thin and bassless. the new remaster adds some much needed bass, particularlly on the title cut.

i can also reccommend "the great deceiver" 4 CD box set, if it ever comes back in print.

is it true the original master for "in the court..." went missing soon after and each subsequent LP/CD pressing has been from a 2nd gen copy?

later, chris

[Gary]

I'm a KC fan too. Been trying to find a HDCD copy of ITCOTCK. I've been told that it was a Japanese only release - gold disc. Also been told that it does not exist - the Japanse pressing sounds the same as a normal domestic CD.

Does anyone know the truth?

[TommyTunes]

>>>Been trying to find a HDCD copy of ITCOTCK. I've been told that it was a Japanese only release - gold disc. Also been told that it does not exist - the Japanse pressing sounds the same as a normal domestic CD. <<<

When the first four reissues were released in Japan they all came out as Gold disks but were not HDCD encoded. The second reissue set were HDCD but were not Gold. So if you're chasing a Gold HDCD of ITCOTCK you'll find a Unicorn sooner. Hope this helps.

PS I personally didn't notice much difference between the Japanese ITCOTCK and the Virgin UK issue.

[TommyTunes]

Hey Drew, IMO I hear a lot of similarities between 90's Crimson and Tool.

[Unknown]

I'll weigh in again on this ... I do not believe the Jap CDs are all that bad. For a KC fan myself, I have no regrets in getting them (if anything, for the extra packaging). In some places, I did notice remarkable sonic improvement. But not in all tracks. Sorry Tommytunes :)

I have the Gold Virgin In the Court Of the Crimson King, the Jap release, the '89 Def Ed., and even the Schizoid Man max-single CD, plus the Box Set Frame by Frame. Before my Def. Ed., I had two JEM CDs. One of them strangley got some static on it for some inexplicable reason.

So in more ways than one, I have had the first album on CD out the nose forward and backward. ;). I recommend Sckott and others pick up the Virgin Gold Release (both are comparable, but the Jap. Gold Release package doesn't seem to have as nice and slick an album cover as the Virgin. There is nothing the Jap. has over the Virgin except an exta booklet in Japanese). Keep in the mind, though, that on both the Jap. and 30th ann. Virgin, a drop-out is very noticeable on the first track. The '89 CD, Frame by Frame, and the Schizoid Man disc do not have this problem.

[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: Browserman ]

[Unknown]

Originally posted by christopher:


is it true the original master for "in the court..." went missing soon after and each subsequent LP/CD pressing has been from a 2nd gen copy?

later, chris


What went missing was the tape for 21st Century Schizoid Man. I think that is why there is noticeable improvement on the all the tracks on the 30th ann. releases except for that song.

[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: Browserman ]

[John Buchanan]

a few comments regarding selected 30th anniversary KC editions....
The only 30th anniversary album not available in HDCD is "In the court..." 21st century Schizoid Man had to be remastered from the only available 2 track tape (a US copy master that had been recorded with some head misalignment that was "corrected" with equalisation.The eight track had disappeared from Wessex Studios highly secure tape cupboard.
In The Wake Of Poseidon and Lizard are mostly improved by less NoNoising of the tapes and subsequently less bass distortion.
Islands has an odd history. First released on Island UK, the sound was nearly reference quality. It came in a different cover from the US release. The album was re-released on Polydor and the sound (like that of the whole rereleased catalogue) was **markedly** inferior and developed lots of extraneous noises, especially during Formantera Lady. The first DE release completely NoNoised these out with terrible results - very severe phase shift in the treble and marked bass distortion (another side effect of NoNoise)
The second DE release reduced the usage of NoNoise and the extraneous noises returned with some improvement in sound quality. The 30th remaster has used a noise free tape and sounds close to my memory of UK Island vinyl.
Larks Tongues has restored the large dynamic shifts in the music that had been squashed flat in every release since the shift to Polydor and the DE release.
Starless and Red are improved - a little more bottom end.
For anyone interested in things KC, check out these two sites http://www.disciplineglobalmobile.com http://www.elephant-talk.com
Is The Great Deceiver unavailable again?
For a cheaper alternative, try "The Nightwatch" double CD, but if you can spring for TGD, it's excellent (sound quality and performance. Recorded by George Chkiantz)Another double CD worth checking out is Absent Lovers
The King Crimson Collectors Club has released some excellent performances. If you want to join, try ordering Cap d'agde, On Broadway (soon to be excerpted on an upcoming release called Vroom Vroom) and Summit Studios

[ultron9]

In regard to the sound quality on the new Virgin edition of "Red," after comparing it to a US Atlantic Records release and The Definitive Edition, I feel it is the least bright sounding release so far of this recording. The Def. Edi. in particular had far to much treble emphasis and no bottom end. If anything the new remasters are somewhat softer on the highs even compared to some earlier Lp editions. :cool: