Interconnects: Why can't I build my own?

[Gary]

I like the Kimber Cables (speaker cables) that I have. Detailed and faithfully reproduce the music. As far as I can tell, at least....

The Kimber Silver Streak interconnects that I have are highly detailed but lack midrange magic on my system.

I know that the signal from the pre to the amp (or the CDP to the pre) is very critical and delicate (for the lack of a better term) but would not a few strands of Kimber speaker cable sound fantastic as interconnects?

Any ideas / comments out there?

[Metralla]

Go for it - a lot fun.

I've built a few. I use 99.999% pure 24ga solid silver wire in Teflon tubes with Eichmann Bullet Plugs or Neutrik XLRs. They take a long time to break in, but they sound terrific. A lot of folks are trying even thinner gauge silver wire - simple twisted pairs. Try to get the capacitance as low as possible.

Regards,
Geoff

[-=Rudy=-]

I don't know--how would the shielding be on such a cable setup? There's a reason coaxial cable is used in most interconnects, to shield out interference. I'd be curious to know how twisted pairs would work.

[Khorn]

Gary go to Google and enter DIY audio cable. You'll come up with lots of choices of sites dedicated to what you are looking for.

[Sckott]

I've used twisted pairs and then using Coax that someone gave me from a Lucent dumpster that was used for servers. Practically 1/2 mile of it, thrown out. Sad.

My opinion? The coax goes together quicker, sounds just a little better. Using Cat5 twisted pair, for me at least, had A LOT of capacitence.

Either was an improvement to normal OEM interconnects....

[sgb]

Try Belden 8451.

[RetroSmith]

You should never use Cat 5 twisted pair for audio. Just doesnt work well.

[Gary]

I know a store that makes their own and sells it. 99.9% pure silver ( + ) and 99.9% oxygen free copper ( - ). Fantastic mid range but no high end extension and severely lacking in low end detail.

I am thinking of just getting Kimber wire and a few RCA plugs and see what it sounds like.

BTW, I have one set of "van den hul" 1's that I'm trying out. So far they are quite nice!

G

[sgb]

Originally posted by mikey5967
You should never use Cat 5 twisted pair for audio. Just doesnt work well.

I've never tried Cat 5 in an audio setup, but there are some guys over at the AA who swear by it.

A friend recently recommended I try Belden 8451, so I did. It's an all-purpose audio cable intended for use in microphone cables and for long stretches of low amplitude signals in general; it was recommended to him by one of the local audiophile gurus in his area. The stuff is cheap, and astonishingly linear. Far more coherent, I might add, than any number of high priced audio cables — Quattro Fils, Golden Cross, Harmonic Tech etch — that have been tried here. They all seem to add something; the Belden simply isn't there.

[ze-ant]

Originally posted by Metralla
Go for it - a lot fun.

I've built a few. I use 99.999% pure 24ga solid silver wire in Teflon tubes with Eichmann Bullet Plugs or Neutrik XLRs. They take a long time to break in, but they sound terrific. A lot of folks are trying even thinner gauge silver wire - simple twisted pairs. Try to get the capacitance as low as possible.

Regards,
Geoff

Hi Geoff,

LOL, I use the same combo (24AWG 5N + Eichmann) but am considering moving to 29 AWG which seems to give more detail with little loss in bass.

BTW, would Don from FL happen to be the source of your wire?

Best,

Anthony

[Metralla]

Originally posted by ze-ant
BTW, would Don from FL happen to be the source of your wire?
Of course. ohmy-god. Great fellow to deal with and first class wire.

I still have another 60 feet sitting here, but I haven't figured out quite what I want to do with it. I do want to try making a pair of interconnects without using the Teflon tubes, just to see if I can lower the capacitance. I also want to experiment, as it's possible that the material can move in the tubes in response to the Lorentz forces. I'm contemplating wrapping the silver wire in Teflon tape and then twisting it.

I also like ChrisVH's recipe, and am thinking about getting some of the Audio Consulting silver wire from Reference Audio Mods.

As far as Mikey's comment "You should never use Cat 5 twisted pair for audio. Just doesnt work well. " I assume you mean for interconnects. I haven't tried a simple twisted pair of Cat 5 as interconnects, but I'm interested in your categorical statement. Is this based on experience?

I can tell you that the ChrisVH braided speaker cables using 27 pairs of Teflon insulated solid core Cat 5 wire are superb; not as good as my silver foils, but close.

Regards,
Geoff

[ze-ant]

Geoff,

I have to agree with you that Don and his products are first class. Hell, I've sampled his 24 AWG wire, his 29 AWG tonearm wire and should be getting some of his new 29 AWG wire any day.

I've also constructed a pair of loudspeaker cables and a power cord using his 24 AWG wire. The loudspeaker cables sound superb (have been using them for the past 6 months and have absolutely no urge to upgrade ever since, they replaced a pair of Analysis Plus Silver Ovals BTW) and the power cable is still burning in in my CDP. Perhaps you can try making a power cable with your left-over wire? I used 7 strands for the live and neutral and it sounds promising.

Your suggestion about wrapping the silver wire in Teflon tape and then twisting it sounds good, since I understand that air is the best insulator.

Best,

Anthony

[WVK]

Can someone explain the physics behind cable "break in or burn in" as mentioned in the above posts. I am having a dificult time imagining that a cable breaks in. (like a pair of shoes?) Anybody?
WVK

[sgb]

It has been a mystery to me for many years, WVK. I have friends who swear that cable does break in, but can't provide a reasonable, scientific explanation for it. Since I do know that a vacuum tube that's been seasoned a bit does sound better than a brand new one out of the box, I'm prepared to accept that a physical change does take place in cables as they are being used. AND, like a tube that will wear out eventually, so should an interconnect or speaker cable (if we accept this premise). I would, though, think that a cable should last thousands of years before it would become unserviceable. Perhaps the heat transfer of the signal passing through does something to the cable to enervate its durability.

[Metralla]

Originally posted by WVK
Can someone explain the physics behind cable "break in or burn in" as mentioned in the above posts.
There are a number of theories that have been postulated but, as yet, none have been categorically proven to be accurate. I know it seems fantastic (as - in the realm of fantasy), but there have been many reports from audiophiles and some manufacturers that cable break-in is a real phenomena.

Because there is no extant theory as to why this occurs, it's easy to claim that it cannot occur. My experience has been that it is worth checking out for yourself.

It makes buying used cables an even better deal - not only do you save bulk money, you profit by not having to break them in yourself.

Regards,
Geoff

[sgb]

A friend of mine has invested in a cable break-in device. He has used it for some time now, and has just loaned it to me to break in several new cables. He tells me that the effect of the device is subtle over short time periods of use, but that after 5 days or more the differences are dramatic. How it works is that it provides a continuous current through the cables being broken in. I have used it for 24 hours so far, and don't hear any difference YET.

One of the better known manufacturers of audiophile cable told me that it's not sufficient to break a cable in. Over periods of nonuse (for as little as a day, even) the cable will revert to its original state. The longer a cable remains unused the longer it will take to break it in again, so the solution is to pass a signal through the cables for several hours every day. He further stated that a cable that has not been used for a week or more will take as much as 100 hours to recondition.

Metralla: would you provide a link to "Don in FL's" site so that I can investigate his offerings? Thanks.

[WVK]

If a cable does indeed change with use is it possible that a cable could "break in" too far, past the "sweet spot"?

WVK
Listening to "Whos Next" as I write this

[sgb]

Originally posted by WVK
If a cable does indeed change with use is it possible that a cable could "break in" too far, past the "sweet spot"?



Exactly! But if you believe that a cable can revert as what was suggested to me, all you'd have to do is take it out of the system for a couple of days.

[WVK]

then the ideal cable is one that is able to stay in the "sweet spot" best?

wvk

[RDK]

Has anyone tried these? They're silver-plated copper, but apparently based on a Kimber design. Price is certainly good...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3013236965&category=33205

[aashton]

I see folk selling cables that have been terminated with Eichmann bullet plugs more and more often these days - has anyone tried them and if so what were the results ?

http://www.eichmanncables.com/p_bullet.htm

The closest I have ever got to roll your own cables was making up a couple of very short digital interconnects from Siltech cable. I put an order in for loads of cable once so I could experiment but the supplier messed around so much that in the end (a few months later) I cancelled the whole order so never got to play that game.

All the best - Andrew

[sgraham]

Originally posted by Rudy@A&MCorner
I don't know--how would the shielding be on such a cable setup? There's a reason coaxial cable is used in most interconnects, to shield out interference. I'd be curious to know how twisted pairs would work.

This is an oversimplification, and avoids discussing things on the "audiophile level", but:

The idea behind twisted pairs is that since the wires are tightly twisted together, they'll both pick up the same amount of noise, and it will be "common mode noise", which means it vanishes completely if you are using a balanced system, since a balanced input senses only the *difference* in voltage between the two wires. (Telephone companies use unshielded pairs everywhere, and you only hear hum when one of the lines gets an unbalanced fault. Of course, that's hardly hifi, but you get the idea.)

In order for this to work really well, the twist is crucial and must be maintained throughout the wiring run. Belden Media Twist Cat-5 cable does an excellent job of this. Belden has some good information about all this on their web site.

Of course in practice "common mode rejection" is imperfect. However there are a number of radio stations and other professional installations (where balanced audio is the norm) that use Media Twist or something similar for both analog and digital audio cabling nowadays, with no noise problems at all.

Shielding can add some additional protection (but in certain cases can also cause additional problems).

In an unbalanced system, such as most consumer audio gear (virutally anything with RCA jacks) the twisted pair idea doesn't work so well, hence the ubiquitous shielded coax. However you may find Cat-5 cable to work for short runs.

[Khorn]

Originally posted by sgb
It has been a mystery to me for many years, WVK. I have friends who swear that cable does break in, but can't provide a reasonable, scientific explanation for it. Since I do know that a vacuum tube that's been seasoned a bit does sound better than a brand new one out of the box, I'm prepared to accept that a physical change does take place in cables as they are being used. AND, like a tube that will wear out eventually, so should an interconnect or speaker cable (if we accept this premise). I would, though, think that a cable should last thousands of years before it would become unserviceable. Perhaps the heat transfer of the signal passing through does something to the cable to enervate its durability.

I have found, and this has happened many times over, that a set of interconnects "breaks in" in a rather sudden manner. I'll install them in my system, they'll sound really good and then (usually after a couple of days or so of use) they go to a whole other level, like falling off a cliff so to speak. I can't explain why this happens but, its happened to me too many times to ignore.

[aashton]

Originally posted by Khorn
they go to a whole other level, like falling off a cliff

Is this good :D :laugh: I must try it more often :laugh:

All the best - Andrew

[Gary]

... check out those lemmings, Aashton!

I'm sure you'd prefer :nauga: ! Sooo much cuter, loveable and nobel!

I think I'll try Kimbers speaker wire as interconnects... one day!