Record clamp = groove echo?

[JBStephens]

I recently began using the J. A. Mitchell record clamp, and I'm suddenly noticing more groove echo than was previously present in my discs. Has anyone else experienced this phenomenon? Perhaps the clamp is now revealing groove echo that was always there before, but unheard until the clamp was added? Thoughts?

[MichaelR]

Groove Echo ????

[avbuff]

I recently began using the J. A. Mitchell record clamp, and I'm suddenly noticing more groove echo than was previously present in my discs. Has anyone else experienced this phenomenon? Perhaps the clamp is now revealing groove echo that was always there before, but unheard until the clamp was added? Thoughts?

Hi JB:
Likewise, I recently purchased a Mitchell clamp for my modded Rega Planar 2 with AT440MLa cartridge. I'm not sure what groove echo is, but just deciphering the term itself I can make an educated guess, and it's an anomaly I have yet to experience either through my main system (Adcom GFP 565 pre, B&K ST-140 power amp), or my headphone rig (Senns 600/cardas & Little Dot ll++ amp).
Are your JVCs Direct Drive? Maybe the clamp is exacerbating some energy coming through your platter/subplatter assembly.
I'm sure someone on this forum can give you a good explanation.
Good luck.

[Scott Wheeler]

I recently began using the J. A. Mitchell record clamp, and I'm suddenly noticing more groove echo than was previously present in my discs. Has anyone else experienced this phenomenon? Perhaps the clamp is now revealing groove echo that was always there before, but unheard until the clamp was added? Thoughts?

Groove echo is in the disc. Seems you are just hearing more of what is on the disc. Hopefully some of the other additional information you are getting off the disc is musically relevant.

[avbuff]

Hey Guys:

Seems like MichaelR and myself are in the dark on this one. Could you help us out here and explain exactly what groove echo is. Is it a byproduct of the actual transfer to disc during the recording/mastering process, which I'll have to assume is correct judging by Scott's comment, and not a mechanical anomaly caused by turntable component interaction.
My set-up's not exactly state of the art, but I think it's relatively adequate at reproducing signal, and I can't say I've ever noticed "groove echo"...
unless...
occasionally I've heard a faint few notes of a tune on a lead in before a tune kicks in at normal volume. Would this be considered groove echo?

[Scott Wheeler]

Hey Guys:

Seems like MichaelR and myself are in the dark on this one. Could you help us out here and explain exactly what groove echo is. Is it a byproduct of the actual transfer to disc during the recording/mastering process, which I'll have to assume is correct judging by Scott's comment, and not a mechanical anomaly caused by turntable component interaction.
My set-up's not exactly state of the art, but I think it's relatively adequate at reproducing signal, and I can't say I've ever noticed "groove echo"...
unless...
occasionally I've heard a faint few notes of a tune on a lead in before a tune kicks in at normal volume. Would this be considered groove echo?

groove echo is a transfer of the cutting action onto the previously cut groove during the cutting of a laquer.

[Drifter]

Here are a couple of the more busy threads on the subject. The first one is from the archives:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=8720

http://stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=87677

[JBStephens]

Right, AVbuff. Groove echo is when you hear a tiny bit of the next groove before the actual groove starts to play. It would sound like this:

(da da da daaaaaah) DA DA DA DAAAAAAAAH!!!

Although I hear it on many albums, with the clamp it seems to have become more annoying than it was. Odd. Although I can't say I'm hearing more with the clamp, it gives me the sense of being one more tiny degree closer to the studio.

[avbuff]

Here are a couple of the more busy threads on the subject. The first one is from the archives:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=8720

http://stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=87677

Thanks for these links, Drifter. I get it now. :righton:

[avbuff]

Right, AVbuff. Groove echo is when you hear a tiny bit of the next groove before the actual groove starts to play. It would sound like this:

(da da da daaaaaah) DA DA DA DAAAAAAAAH!!!

Although I hear it on many albums, with the clamp it seems to have become more annoying than it was. Odd. Although I can't say I'm hearing more with the clamp, it gives me the sense of being one more tiny degree closer to the studio.

JB,

I copied this from one of the links that Drifter posted. The following is a post from OcdMan whom you will notice has the same cartridge as you:

Re: Vinyl pre-track "ghosting" question
I've found that the more precisely I dial in azimuth, the less the pre-echo is audible. It's so quiet now that I would have to crank the volume up considerably for it to be any kind of a problem. Also, it seems some styli deal with this problem better than others, possibly because not every portion of the groove wall is affected equally. My Audio-Technica 440ML does very well in handling this.
__________________
Matt

Maybe your cartridge masked the echo as it has for OcdMan, and the addition of the clamp and its stabilizing effect somehow draws more information through your cartridge making that echo a bit more noticeable.

[Scott Wheeler]

JB,

I copied this from one of the links that Drifter posted. The following is a post from OcdMan whom you will notice has the same cartridge as you:

Re: Vinyl pre-track "ghosting" question
I've found that the more precisely I dial in azimuth, the less the pre-echo is audible. It's so quiet now that I would have to crank the volume up considerably for it to be any kind of a problem. Also, it seems some styli deal with this problem better than others, possibly because not every portion of the groove wall is affected equally. My Audio-Technica 440ML does very well in handling this.
__________________
Matt

Maybe your cartridge masked the echo as it has for OcdMan, and the addition of the clamp and its stabilizing effect somehow draws more information through your cartridge making that echo a bit more noticeable.


That makes complete sense. Better dialed in stylus should play lower in the groove no? The deeper your stylus tracks in the groove the less echo you should get. visualize the grooves


More to push around deeper in the groove

Am I nuts?

[JBStephens]

Pink Floyd's The Wall, first track... SIX echos of that first note during the quiet accordian part before that note hits... SIX. I'm not kidding. Now, I can understand echo in the adjacent groove, but five grooves away???

Way too slow to be master-tape print-through... I wonder if all Walls are like this?

[MichaelR]

I wonder if adding a groove echo effect to CD's will make them sound better !!!!

I will have to listen for this effect - can't say I have noticed this before ..!

Michael

[avbuff]

Pink Floyd's The Wall, first track... SIX echos of that first note during the quiet accordian part before that note hits... SIX. I'm not kidding. Now, I can understand echo in the adjacent groove, but five grooves away???

Way too slow to be master-tape print-through... I wonder if all Walls are like this?

I don't have The Wall in any version. Damn, you've got me very curious.

[Drifter]

Pink Floyd's The Wall, first track... SIX echos of that first note during the quiet accordian part before that note hits... SIX. I'm not kidding. Now, I can understand echo in the adjacent groove, but five grooves away???

Way too slow to be master-tape print-through... I wonder if all Walls are like this?Okay, I've just listened to "In the Flesh?" and I hear it on my system too. I checked an mp3 I have of it sourced from CD and it wasn't audible there. However, it doesn't sound like the first chord to me, it sounds almost like the guitar at the beginning of "Another Brick in the Wall part I", as it has a rhythmic quality to it. :confused:

[SkyloWyres]

Hi, I believe what you are hearing is analog tape print through. When a tape is stored on a reel there is print through from the portion of the tape with the signal to the piece of tape which is next to it as it is wound on the reel. On a15" reel it is approximately 1/15 of a second before the first note of the first song. By using the clamp you are reducing masking resonances which allow you to better hear low level signals like tape print through.

[JBStephens]

Hi, I believe what you are hearing is analog tape print through. When a tape is stored on a reel there is print through from the portion of the tape with the signal to the piece of tape which is next to it as it is wound on the reel. On a15" reel it is approximately 1/15 of a second before the first note of the first song. By using the clamp you are reducing masking resonances which allow you to better hear low level signals like tape print through.

Since you're a noob, I'll forgive you for not reading my profile to see what I do for a living. :)

What I am hearing is groove echo. :D :D :D

[Clay W]

Having just read what you do for a living, JB, I suspect youre the guy to correct or confirm what I've always thought about groove echo: that it is a function of the quality of the pressing and it is most prevalent in those very thin, very flexible records from the 60's and 70's.

Beyond that, I have another question you might have an answer to. As a lover of early straight up jazz, I pick up lots of used vinyl. Much of it has lived a relatively hard life, and I wind up making transfers to CD-R's. I've got a good method of dealing with pops an clicks, but groove echo is tougher. I generallyproduce a gap of lost hall ambience when I get the echo out. How do you deal with it?

[JBStephens]

Having just read what you do for a living, JB, I suspect youre the guy to correct or confirm what I've always thought about groove echo: that it is a function of the quality of the pressing and it is most prevalent in those very thin, very flexible records from the 60's and 70's.

Beyond that, I have another question you might have an answer to. As a lover of early straight up jazz, I pick up lots of used vinyl. Much of it has lived a relatively hard life, and I wind up making transfers to CD-R's. I've got a good method of dealing with pops an clicks, but groove echo is tougher. I generallyproduce a gap of lost hall ambience when I get the echo out. How do you deal with it?

You mean the RCA "Dynaflex" pressings? GAHH!

*runs screaming from the room*

The effect of groove echo is directly related to how loud the groove is relative to the previous groove. In the case of Pink Floyd's Wall, in the first track, that first note really really HITS so it's going to scatter vibrations back through several grooves. It's not the pressing so much as the cutting of the original studio lacquer, because I hear groove echo on those, and I hear groove echo in very good pressings such as Mo Fi.

When I master from vinyl, which I have to do sometimes, I just snip out everything prior to the first note. Groove echo is just the nature of the beast, you learn to live with it. It's the price we pay for enjoying vinyl. That or use a noise gate (very, very bad).

Incidentally, going back to master tape print-through, that's one of the reasons master tapes are stored tails-out (played state), because that puts the print-through at the end of the song instead of the beginning. If you hear print-through at the beginning of a track, the master has been improperly stored. YO, ARISTA.... :wave:

[Scott Wheeler]

Pink Floyd's The Wall, first track... SIX echos of that first note during the quiet accordian part before that note hits... SIX. I'm not kidding. Now, I can understand echo in the adjacent groove, but five grooves away???

Way too slow to be master-tape print-through... I wonder if all Walls are like this?

That has to be print through. Six grooves? That must be a record. pum intended

[JBStephens]

The echoes on master tape print-through are less than a second. These echoes are around two seconds, the revolotion period of an album.

The echo starts in the left channel, the groove wall closest to the next groove. Print-through would be equal in both channels.

If this is master tape print-through, it would be on the CD. It's not. Just on the album.

The master tapes wouldn't have had time to develop print-through when this album was pressed. That takes years.

If this is master tape print through, give me that tape and I'll eat it for breakfast! Without milk and sugar!

Better yet, give me Dark Side Of The Moon so I can FIX it. :righton:

Now you guys quit arguing with me, I know the difference between dad-gum print-through and dad-gum groove echo, dad-gum it! HA HA HA HA!!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Buzzcat]

I've never heard of groove echo nor have I ever noticed it while playing any album. And if I DO now, I'm gonna be real pissed at all of you! (hehheh)

So JB, let me see if I'm getting this right:

When the studio lacquers are being cut, the vibration of the cutting head produces enough vibration, say for instance on the opening track of The Wall, that it somehow alters the previously cut groove up to 6 rotations back?

If the previous groove has already been cut and there is nothing physical (cutting head) touching it how in the world the echo get cut/imprinted in it?

Yeah, I'm kinda dumb. Had to say it before some other know-it-all calls me it.

[bobrex]

Groove echo is fairly common, I can find it on different genres - classical, jazz, rock... I've also heard it on a direct to disk record, so it ain't a function of tape.

[JBStephens]

Here's a very good explanation of the phenomenon.

http://members.tripod.com/~Vinylville/groove-echo.html

I think the reason the groove echo on The Wall is so noticeable is because that accordian part is juuuuuuust at the noise floor of the vinyl itself and because it runs for so long. Ordinarily you'd only have one or two seconds to hear the groove echo, but on this track it lasts for 14 seconds, allowing ample time to hear all the echoes.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/4tsl19

Apologies for the lousy quality of the vinyl, it's a very beat copy. Notice that the echoes tend to lean toward the left, which is logical since that's the closest goove wall. Six of them!

[OcdMan]

Have any audio clips with and without the clamp? I use a Michell clamp and have never noticed any differences. But I'm going to check now! :)

(I'm always surprised at how many people have never heard or heard of groove echo.)