Breaking in interconnect cables.

[JBStephens]

I can understand how things like speakers and phono cartridges need a break-in time, because they are components that involve suspensions and movement, so compliance, resonances, etc. will naturally change over time. I can even understand how a component like a CD player will need break-in time, as even that will have heat/cool cycles, capacitors forming, and so on that will shape it's eventual sound. But I cannot understand how interconnects need broken in. It's a piece of wire. It's inert. It doesn't move, it doesn't heat, it doesn't cool, it doesn't do anything but carry a signal at levels too low to cause any physical change.

Can someone explain what happens to a piece of wire that causes it to behave in a different manner with the passage of time?

[morinix]

:-popcorn:

[SolarWind]

I can understand how things like speakers and phono cartridges need a break-in time, because they are components that involve suspensions and movement, so compliance, resonances, etc. will naturally change over time. I can even understand how a component like a CD player will need break-in time, as even that will have heat/cool cycles, capacitors forming, and so on that will shape it's eventual sound. But I cannot understand how interconnects need broken in. It's a piece of wire. It's inert. It doesn't move, it doesn't heat, it doesn't cool, it doesn't do anything but carry a signal at levels too low to cause any physical change.

Can someone explain what happens to a piece of wire that causes it to behave in a different manner with the passage of time?
There is nothing to explain, really. Don't let yourself be fooled.
Your assumption is correct. Cables break-in is a myth, a hoax.

A cable, piece of wire, consists of solid conductive metal. Current flows, i.e. free electrons are drifting back and forth through the cable -- you hear music. Easy as that. Metal alloys do not change their capacity and impedance over time. They do not need any "breaking-in".

[Blencathra]

What are the specific electrical components within hi-fi kit that DO improve with breaking in?

[AKA-Chuck G]

Speakers are at the top of the list for improvement with breaking in.

I've heard others claim CD players improve. It is all so subjective.

[JayB]

Here we go...:>)

[bdiament]

I can understand how things like speakers and phono cartridges need a break-in time, because they are components that involve suspensions and movement, so compliance, resonances, etc. will naturally change over time. I can even understand how a component like a CD player will need break-in time, as even that will have heat/cool cycles, capacitors forming, and so on that will shape it's eventual sound. But I cannot understand how interconnects need broken in. It's a piece of wire. It's inert. It doesn't move, it doesn't heat, it doesn't cool, it doesn't do anything but carry a signal at levels too low to cause any physical change.

Can someone explain what happens to a piece of wire that causes it to behave in a different manner with the passage of time?

Hi JBStephens,

The bigger question is have you listened to hear for yourself if you notice a change between the time a brand new cable is first inserted and when it has played music for several days?

I have done this many times and have no doubt the performance is improving. Midrange smooths out and loses initial grain. Top end extends more. Bass tightens up and gains more pitch definition and punch. Overall sense of "focus" improves considerably.

Some folks claim this is a result of the listener getting "used to" the sound of the cable. I found this easy to disprove by using two identical pairs of interconnects. Leaving one on the shelf while the other breaks in over the course of several days. After a week or more of listening to the now broken in cable, switch to the brand new, unused set and you hear the grain, lack of focus, spongy bass, lack of extension, etc., etc. all return. I've heard this happen again and again, without exception, with all sorts of cable designs.

As to the "why"... George Cardas has some interesting ideas on his website (cardas.com). I've heard many theories and like many "explanations" of audio phenomena, I'm not sure they are the final, correct summation of just what is occurring. What I've found though, is that I don't need to know the "why" in order to clearly experience the phenomenon.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[Gary]

The bigger question is have you listened to hear for yourself if you notice a change between the time a brand new cable is first inserted and when it has played music for several days?


I have done this on my systems (as they have changed over the years with new speakers, preamp, etc.) With every configuration, I have noticed a difference.

I have done this many times and have no doubt the performance is improving.

I'm sure I have not done this as many times as you have, but I agree with you. Sometimes, however, the "final" result - an interconnect that has been played over several days - or about 50+ hours - proves not to be suitable for my system or to my taste. So back to the drawing board I go! :)

Some folks claim this is a result of the listener getting "used to" the sound of the cable. I found this easy to disprove...


I use another method. Hearing the harshness of a new cable and not wanting to endure the sound, I simply turn off the amp and let the CDP rum for 2 or 3 days and then listen again.

If it's still harsh after a few days - or even a week - there is no way it's staying in my system! Out it goes! :D

[LeeS]

Bill Low of Audioquest believes break-in to relate to the dielectric properties.

http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/aq_cable_theory.pdf

My personal experience is that cable break-in can be heard.

[Blencathra]

That's not what I meant - which electrical components improve with use - NOT which hi-fi devices. I know which devices improve!!! Just talking solid state here.

Is it capacitors? Is it resistors? Is it transistors? What?

[LeeS]

I know for a fact that capacitors improve with a little age. Hovland did a study on this once.

P.S. My comment above answers the OP's question. You seem to be asking a different one.

[Metralla]

A cable, piece of wire, consists of solid conductive metal.
Not quite.

There is also a dielectric material forming the insulation. Normally, there are connectors soldered to the wires (not on my speaker cables, however) - joints connected with dissimilar metals. Drawing the wire through dies during manufacture stresses the crystalline structure and relaxation can occur during the first period of use.

I don't think we have the completely static situation you imply.

[JBStephens]

Bill Low of Audioquest believes break-in to relate to the dielectric properties.

http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/aq_cable_theory.pdf

My personal experience is that cable break-in can be heard.

Thank you. That's what I was after, the "how and why" of cable mechanics explained.

[LeeS]

You are very welcome. :)

[SolarWind]

Not quite.

There is also a dielectric material forming the insulation. Normally, there are connectors soldered to the wires (not on my speaker cables, however) - joints connected with dissimilar metals. Drawing the wire through dies during manufacture stresses the crystalline structure and relaxation can occur during the first period of use.

I don't think we have the completely static situation you imply.
Well, perhaps. I will not object to this or other arguments.
If some people are able to hear the difference, it's fine with me.
I do not doubt or question their experience.

I just know from many situations, from my own listening experience, that the listener's "break-in" maybe just as important factor as the equipment "break-in".
Because we, humans, do not have constant and uniform hearing.
It is a scientific fact that the quality of our hearing varies widely on different days and in different situations (depending on our mood, blood pressure, air pressure, if we have a cold, who we met, what we ate, what we saw, hearing fatigue, etc.). It's impossible to tell and it's also impossible to prove, where the heard difference originated from (from the cable or from the listener). Whatever everybody believes it to be is fine. No-one will ever be able to convince the other party. :)

[Metoo]

JBStephens, you might also want to look here: http://www.vandenhul.nl/userfiles/docs/Cable_FAQ.pdf

[bdiament]

...It's impossible to tell and it's also impossible to prove, where the heard difference originated from (from the cable or from the listener). Whatever everybody believes it to be is fine. No-one will ever be able to convince the other party. :)

Hi SolarWind,

It is easily possible to determine if the difference originates in the cable or in the listener.

As I said in my post above, all one need do is take two identical sets of cables, use one for a week's worth of playing music and leave the other completely unused. After a week, insert the unused set.

From my perspective, if you heard the first cable change but don't hear a difference when the unused one is inserted, it is safe to conclude the listener is what changed. If you heard the first cable change and hear a difference when the unused one is inserted, it is safe to conclude the cable is indeed what changed.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[JBStephens]

JBStephens, you might also want to look here: http://www.vandenhul.nl/userfiles/docs/Cable_FAQ.pdf

As Mr. Spock would say, "Faaaaaascinating." I am inspired to try constructing a few experimental interconnects.

[Plinko]

Hi SolarWind,

It is easily possible to determine if the difference originates in the cable or in the listener.

As I said in my post above, all one need do is take two identical sets of cables, use one for a week's worth of playing music and leave the other completely unused. After a week, insert the unused set.

From my perspective, if you heard the first cable change but don't hear a difference when the unused one is inserted, it is safe to conclude the listener is what changed. If you heard the first cable change and hear a difference when the unused one is inserted, it is safe to conclude the cable is indeed what changed.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

I'm thinking the results would prove statistically inconclusive. Particularly if you perform only one test.

Are there examples on the web of tests performed that hold up to probability/stat analysis?

[morinix]

Hovland did a study on this once.:sigh:

[bdiament]

I'm thinking the results would prove statistically inconclusive. Particularly if you perform only one test.

Are there examples on the web of tests performed that hold up to probability/stat analysis?

Hi Plinko,

I've been doing this test for years with dozens of cables and the unused cable always reveals itself as such.

Statistics and theory are very interesting, no doubt but empirical evidence is going to tell you a lot more in the long run - particularly with devices that have no other purpose in the Universe than to be listened to.

Of course, I can only speak for my own experience and that of many folks whose ears I trust after knowing them and listening with them for a long, long time.

Some folks do not hear cable differences at all so I would not expect them to hear differences in the same cable between when it is brand new and unused and after it has been used for a while passing a music signal.

I don't debate it. I simply report my experience.
(I don't debate tomorrow morning's sunrise either. :rolleyes: )

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[monewe]

Burn in could simply be your ears adjusting to the new sound it is hearing.

[Ski Bum]

I originally did not think I would hear a difference when changing speakers cable and interconnects. I was surprised when I heard a clear difference (most notable with speaker cables and phono interconnects). I then absolutely refused to even consider that the "wires" would burn in. So I was embarrassed when the speaker cables clearly changed their sound over the first couple of hundred hours.

I can't attest to the correct scientific explanation, but there must be one because the change is clearly audible (more so with speaker cables than interconnects, in my experience) and repeatable.

[bdiament]

Burn in could simply be your ears adjusting to the new sound it is hearing.

Hi monewe,

Read some of the earlier posts in this thread.
I talk about an easy way to prove this is not the case.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[monewe]

Hi monewe,

Read some of the earlier posts in this thread.
I talk about an easy way to prove this is not the case.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com


Hi Barry,

I just jumped into the thread without reading earlier posts and of course you are right in your comparisons. As cables do change and please don't ask me the theories as I can't tell you what they are. My ears do the listening.

I was wanting to see what others were thinking.

However like you I am talking from experience as I have been burning in cables isoteric or otherwise now for over 35 years. I worked in the Hi Fi industry for a number of years setting up top end equipment in other peoples houses.

Best wishes