Best Sounding Remasters [Archive]

PsychFan

01-17-2002, 06:10 AM

Originally posted by Jeffrey
Joni Mitchell HDCD's by Joe Gastwirt

I don't know about any of the others, but I thought the Court & Spark title was a piece of cheese. After being used to hearing Steve's wonderful DCC gold disc for a few years, listening to the HDCD my sister purchased sounded like the proverbial nails on a chalkboard -- WAY too bright, and grainy. Eeeechh.

I really like the latest batch of Steely Dan remasters. Some of the old vinyl still sounds better, but I think they're the best 16-bit digital versions around.

Jeffrey

01-17-2002, 06:58 AM

Hi,

Originally posted by Jeff Partyka

I don't know about any of the others, but I thought the Court & Spark title was a piece of cheese. After being used to hearing Steve's wonderful DCC gold disc for a few years, listening to the HDCD my sister purchased sounded like the proverbial nails on a chalkboard -- WAY too bright, and grainy. Eeeechh.

Hey Jeff,

Should have done a better job asking my question. Obviously a $9 release doesn't have a shot in hell at matching a $30+ Steve master (last C&S I say went for $50+). What I wanted to do was compare apples to apples or $9 aluminum to $9 aluminum just the way ya compared the Steely Dan remasters to the original 1980's aluminum releases. Do that w/ Joni's stuff and ya may have a different opinion.

Thanks for your input,
Jeff

Beagle

01-17-2002, 07:14 AM

Obviously a $9 release doesn't have a shot in hell at matching a $30+ Steve master And why would that be? Because a label only charges $9 for the reissue, does that mean Joe Gastwirt is not as good as Steve Hoffman? No. And because you paid $30 for something, it HAS to be better? Again, not necessarily. You could blind test a group of people and some would prefer one, some the other, some would like both. But it has nothing to do with the price. Both are superb mastering engineers and both did a good job.

I found the HDCD Court and Spark pretty close to the original vinyl, which is probably correct. A matter of taste I suppose. Just like tubes and solid state.

lukpac

01-17-2002, 07:15 AM

Originally posted by Jeffrey
Obviously a $9 release doesn't have a shot in hell at matching a $30+ Steve master

No reason why it can't/shouldn't. Those old CDs Steve did at MCA sound great, don't they?

Or how about the Razor & Tie Beach Boys...

Or the Right Stuff Leon Russell...

Jeffrey

01-17-2002, 07:52 AM

Hi Beagle & Luke,

Gotta question your logic on $9 alum. cd's and $30+ gold cd's being equal. First the blank, gold will have less imperfections than aluminum. Why isn't that important? Second the r&d funding, w/ more money available to the mastering engineer they should have more time to find the best master tape and do the best possible job w/ it. I was the one who listed Gastwirt's C&S as a great job but is it really equal to what Steve did on gold?

Another view,
Jeffrey

PsychFan

01-17-2002, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by Jeffrey
What I wanted to do was compare apples to apples or $9 aluminum to $9 aluminum just the way ya compared the Steely Dan remasters to the original 1980's aluminum releases. Do that w/ Joni's stuff and ya may have a different opinion.

Well, back in the day I used to own the first CD issue of Court & Spark, and although I never did an A/B comparison, I remembered it sounding fairly neutral, and not overly bright like the HDCD.

I should add that I never listened to the HDCD version on an HDCD-capable player. That could make a big difference.

jligon

01-17-2002, 08:19 AM

Ben Webster "Soulville"-Verve
Blossom Dearie "Blossom Dearie"-Verve
Etta James "At Last"-MCA
Muddy Waters "Folk Singer"-MCA
The Residents "Commercial Album"-ESD
Nick Drake "Five Leaves Left"-Island
Louvin Brothers "When I Stop Dreaming"-Razor & Tie ;)

just few that come to mind. i'm a music lover first, an audiophile 2nd. it's nice when they come together but i can't limit my collection to audiophile releases only (as i'm sure none of you can). it would be nice if everything sounded as good as some of the better sounding discs but i'm afraid it's never going to happen. at least not until steve reveals his mastering secrets.;)

Beagle

01-17-2002, 08:55 AM

Gotta question your logic on $9 alum. cd's and $30+ gold cd's being equal. First the blank, gold will have less imperfections than aluminum. Again, why should that necessarily be so? Unless there are built in defects, gold or aluminum should be the same sonically. I mean, SACDs are aluminum. Gold is basically a gimmick IMHO. True, if a mastering engineer has more time, this might allow him to do a better job. But if he knows what he is doing, he shouldn't need that much more time than he would for a normal commercial release, unless of course he has lots of machine calibrating and tape baking to do. I'm not a mastering engineer so take my comments with a grain of salt.

But you have the Joni HDCDs offered by a major label at $9 (whose royalties, advances and production costs were paid for 30 years ago) and a DCC or Mo-Fi that has to sell for $30 because it's not going to be a mass market success so costs have to be covered somewhere if the business is going to stay afloat. But a well-mastered $9 retail aluminum disc needn't sound any worse than a well-mastered gold audiophile $30 disc.

lukpac

01-17-2002, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by Jeffrey
Gotta question your logic on $9 alum. cd's and $30+ gold cd's being equal. First the blank, gold will have less imperfections than aluminum. Why isn't that important? Second the r&d funding, w/ more money available to the mastering engineer they should have more time to find the best master tape and do the best possible job w/ it. I was the one who listed Gastwirt's C&S as a great job but is it really equal to what Steve did on gold?

If you look at a gold CD under a microscope, it might look better than an aluminum CD. However, I highly question anyone who thinks it would sound different.

As far as R&D and funding goes, do you really think Steve had all that back at MCA? Hardly. Most producers for labels today probably have more to work with than Steve did back then. Yet Steve still produced some great sounding discs. Better than what's being done today in most cases.

Dave

01-17-2002, 09:15 AM

Beagle,

I agree somewhat with your statements, as can be proven with Steves mastering of The Who: Who's Next on MCA aluminum cd.

As far as gold being better than aluminum it is a scientific fact. If you look at both metals on a cd under a microscope the aluminum has millions of pin dot holes on it where as the gold is a perfect flat surface with almost no imperfections. In other words far less work for your player in regards to error correction and completely resistant to oxidization.

Welcome and where in our great country are you located?
Peace:)

lukpac

01-17-2002, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by Dave
As far as gold being better than aluminum it is a scientific fact. If you look at both metals on a cd under a microscope the aluminum has millions of pin dot holes on it where as the gold is a perfect flat surface with almost no imperfections. In other words far less work for your player in regards to error correction and completely resistant to oxidization.
Again, I don't think anyone is saying that on a microscopic level gold isn't better than aluminum. However, the question is, does that really make a difference in playback? The literature on MoFi and DCC CDs would have you believe that, but of course they are going to say that...

The only way to really settle it is produce two CDs, one aluminum and one gold, with everything else the same...

SVL

01-17-2002, 10:22 AM

Dire Straits remasters by Bob Ludwig on Vertigo are very good.

I've also liked a lot the Fantasy remasters of old Prestige, Riverside and Contemporary albums using JVC's Digital K2 technology - Wes Montgomery/Incredible Jazz Guitar, Sonny Rollins/Out West, and Monk and Coltrane.

Beagle

01-17-2002, 10:23 AM

Welcome and where in our great country are you located? Thanks. I'm in Ontario, the least "great" part of Canada.

feinstein

01-17-2002, 10:27 AM

Call me old-fashioned, but the MCA Buddy Holly "From the Original Master Tapes" CD is one of the best restorations that I've ever heard. You put that on and it just takes your breath away. Puts the late, great Buddy in the room with you. Norman Petty and that group who recorded Buddy's New York sessions sure had some magic touch.

Why can't MCA put out a "Buddy Holly Complete Works" collection?

Dave

01-17-2002, 10:46 AM

Probably because they don't have Steve anymore.;)

Lukpac,

I wasn't disputing the fact that a great recording doesn't care whether it's on gold or aluminum as ultimately I don't think that it really makes that much difference ie. "The Who: Who's Next MCA aluminum". It's all in the mastering.:D

There are 2 albums that I have on cd that directly compare to Steve's style of mastering:

Jerry Doucette: Mama Let Him Play remastered by Ray Janos/Trutone inc.

ZZ Top: The Best Of 10 Legendary Texas Tales it doesn't state who mastered it. It says CDD pre-mastering by WCI Record Group and produced by Bill Ham on WEA. (extremely vinyl sounding)

AudioGirl

01-17-2002, 06:15 PM

Here's what I know....

It is never a matter of how much a CD or LP costs... Although, if you are the best at what you do, you ought to be able to get a little more money for your efforts.

But, my point is this... It doesn't matter what the finished product sells for. That is never what makes one CD or LP sound better than another!

What matters is whose ears are on the mastering console. Who decides when it is "right". If that person knows what they are doing... You get a great sounding album.

If not... well, you know what you get. (AHHH!! The proverbial nails on the chalkboard) :eek:

And, just because something sounds like the old vinyl you have from the 60's or 70's sure doesn't mean it is "right".

What's "right" is what sounds good and pleasing to your ear.

It's a personal thing.... Each person has their own idea of what that is... It just so happens that Steve Hoffman seems to hit on that common place that makes us go hmmmmmmmm, that's nice... that's "right"

Thanks Steve!! :)

Dave

01-17-2002, 07:08 PM

AudioGirl,

When I say "vinyl sounding" what I mean exactly is that there is little or no compression used, no added air (12,000-16,000 range) for that extra added ear-ache, no enhanced bass frequencies. Just the vinyl warmth of the mid range and the complete ringing of the cymbals without being squished to death that most of us on this forum enjoy so much.

Yes, Steve is the best at achieving what we all want and love, but not the only one!

Like you say it doesn't matter whether or not it's on gold aluminum or whatever and you only get what you pay for. I don't care if it costs 2 cents or $30.00 if Steve did it, I'll buy it.

Bottom line is that more often than not the first vinyl pressings are closer to the sound on the master tapes.

Beagle

01-18-2002, 03:30 AM

And, just because something sounds like the old vinyl you have from the 60's or 70's sure doesn't mean it is "right". What's "right" is what sounds good and pleasing to your ear

So what happens if you have a tin ear or are half deaf, use this policy and become a recording or mastering engineer?

Oh I forgot, you get remasters like "All Things Must Pass"...

Jeffrey

01-18-2002, 04:31 AM

Hi,

I was hoping if I laid-off this thread for awhile it would go back to it's original purpose but since it hasn't I will try again to make my point. In life you USUALLY get what you pay for and if a similar item cost 3 to 5 times what another one cost, it SHOULD be better. There are always exceptions.

Gold vs. Aluminum: Gold has less imperfections. Luke makes a great point that the way to know is test. The thing is the best quality test would require thousands of random samples and the usage of identical equipment to increase the accuracy of the findings. It has been implied (even stated) that it was just a marketing ploy by DCC & Mofi w/ no true value-added. This is certainly possible but at some point ya gotta trust the professional (or at least I choose to). Instead of going back & forth why don't we ask him, Hey Steve does it make a difference?

R&D/ Project Funding: I believe that if ya give a pro like Steve a $50,000 project budget he can do a better job on the product than if he had a $10,000 budget. Steve would have more time to go back & forth scoring the best master, matching playback equipment, calibrating the equipment, etc. etc. Instead of going back & forth why don't we ask him, Hey Steve if we give ya more money can ya do a better job?

Let It Rain,
Jeffrey

RetroSmith

01-18-2002, 06:04 AM

I agree that really, cost has nothing to do with what the quailty of the Cd you pull out of the shrink wrap is.

Record companies simply want to move inventory, and all kinds of things happen.

I've spent 19.00 on single Cds at Tower that SUCKED, and have gotten 5.99 no name Cds that simply used great sources.

so you really cant tell until to listen!!

Jeffrey

01-18-2002, 06:57 AM

Hi,

Originally posted by mikey5967
I agree that really, cost has nothing to do with what the quailty of the Cd you pull out of the shrink wrap is.

Record companies simply want to move inventory, and all kinds of things happen.

I've spent 19.00 on single Cds at Tower that SUCKED, and have gotten 5.99 no name Cds that simply used great sources.

so you really cant tell until to listen!!

Hey Mikey,

This IS NOT the comparison I'm making. This discussion was based on comparing DCC's Gold release of "Court & Spark" w/ the remastered standard release done by Joe Gastwirt. In otherwords, Audiophile release vs. Standard release. I believe that IN GENERAL, the audiophile release is better.

The Music Never Stops,
Jeffrey

Steve Hoffman

01-18-2002, 07:00 AM

Originally posted by Jeffrey
Hi,

Gold vs. Aluminum: Gold has less imperfections. Luke makes a great point that the way to know is test. The thing is the best quality test would require thousands of random samples and the usage of identical equipment to increase the accuracy of the findings. It has been implied (even stated) that it was just a marketing ploy by DCC & Mofi w/ no true value-added. This is certainly possible but at some point ya gotta trust the professional (or at least I choose to). Instead of going back & forth why don't we ask him, Hey Steve does it make a difference?

R&D/ Project Funding: I believe that if ya give a pro like Steve a $50,000 project budget he can do a better job on the product than if he had a $10,000 budget. Steve would have more time to go back & forth scoring the best master, matching playback equipment, calibrating the equipment, etc. etc. Instead of going back & forth why don't we ask him, Hey Steve if we give ya more money can ya do a better job?

Let It Rain,
Jeffrey

Hold a regular silver CD up to the light. See the thousands of pin holes? Ugggh. Now hold a DCC Gold CD up to the light. Smooth. No pin holes.

Your CD player works overtime to mask the imprefections (like pinholes) as the music is playing back. With a DCC Gold CD, there is nothing to mask. Your player is much happier...

Regarding budget, I have the equipment I need. Doesn't matter what they pay me, it's going to sound like I want it to sound. If they gave a million bucks, the project would sound the same as a $3000.00 project. I would just be doing it from my Summer home in Tahiti.

Jeffrey

01-18-2002, 07:14 AM

Hi,

Originally posted by Steve Hoffman

Regarding budget, I have the equipment I need. Doesn't matter what they pay me, it's going to sound like I want it to sound. If they gave a million bucks, the project would sound the same as a $3000.00 project. I would just be doing it from my Summer home in Tahiti.

Hey Steve,

Thanks for the response. Better erase this fast before some finance guy (like me) quotes ya on it. :)

Personally, I have unfortunately found Steve's hip spirit to be rare in the finance world. Most people give ya better work when ya pay them more. I'm not sure all mastering engineers have the same spirit as Steve.:rolleyes:

Let It Rock,
Jeffrey