Any Motown experts on the DCC board?

[Dr. Winston]

Sittin here patiently waitin for the next batch of DCC stuff to be released-- playin some Motown tonight. Several questions on master tapes and Motown CDs. I bought the Four Tops, Temptations, Smokey Robinson Greatest hits packages years ago--I know there have been countless repackages that make it hard to tell which ones have the best overall sound relative to the single masters. The ones I have were mastered and compiled by John Matousek. I am sure these were not the master single versions used on these early CD Hits. I did purchase The Diana Ross and Supremes -Ultimate Collection single CD which claims to use the 45RPM versions and was mastered by Kevin Reeves at Polygram. The only other Motown set I own is the Hitsville USA boxset (1959-1971) which was mastered by Bill Inglot and Dan Hersch and they claim to have done thorough research and used the single MASTERS for the box.

Big question--which CDs to get(on Supremes, Gaye, Smokey, 4 Tops, Temps, etc) and which ones to ditch?--all info appreciated. I am only interested in the 60s Motown material.

[Dave]

Hi Doc :)
I'm not sure if you'd like this one but here goes and I highly recommend it. The Best Of The Platters by Top Music Int. recorded 24/96 high definition. A teenie weenie bit bright (not all through) but imaging is pretty stunning.
Hope this helps ya.

[Steve Hoffman]

Doc,

Motown on CD. Gee whiz. Not good, eh?

Better to collect all of the original 45's. Better sound and the CORRECT versions....

But, if you must have the stuff on CD's, try and stick with stuff that was NOT mastered in the past 4 or 5 years. Some of the older stuff at least didn't have the dynamics totally removed.

How is the Bill Inglot box? All mono, right? Have not heard it, but some of the original mono mixes really nailed the sound....

I heard a recent remaster of a Temptations G.H. and had to laugh. Even my bad old stereo LP sounded better. The CD was so compressed, that the audio was worse than the AM signal KLAC Radio used to put out when I worked there in 1976. Almost a square wave. Shocking misuse of a digital mastering workstation.

As to stereo mixes vs. mono's, I don't want to go there, too late at night for me, but if one loves Motown, then both have to be collected.... Thank God I still have a minty 45 of everything. I would go crazy trying to start collecting Motown CD's now. So many of them, so confusing, so many incorrect versions of songs being chosen, so many mismarked tapes, so many tinny mastering jobs, so many out of print already.

Beware of the Motown Compact Collection series though, (the first attempt at CD's). They are missing essential hits and all sound like they were mastered with 5 db added at 3k. Sort of the old Motown radio EQ, but with extra ear bleed thrown in for good measure....

Anyone else know a good Motown CD? :(

[lukpac]

Originally posted by Steve Hoffman:
But, if you must have the stuff on CD's, try and stick with stuff that was NOT mastered in the past 4 or 5 years. Some of the older stuff at least didn't have the dynamics totally removed.
Well, since so many different people are involved these days, it's really hard to say. I find the Kevin Reeves remaster of the Temps GH disc to be way too bright, but Suha Gur's remasters of some of the individual albums (done shortly after the GH disc) are a lot smoother and warmer. The Cooley High soundtrack generally sounds pretty good - the version of Reach Out on there is really awesome, IMO. It's also got a full-length My Girl in stereo, although the stereo image is a bit narrow and it doesn't have that nice wet sound like most Motown mixes from that period. Unfortunately the few mono tracks have some type of stereo processing on them - Money included.

I've heard a few of those 20th Century Masters collections, and they seemed pretty good on the surface - sufice to say I haven't sat down and carefully listened to them (since they aren't mine).

BTW, Steve, that guy who was wondering about White Room mastered at least one Motown collection - it seems to me it was a Temps "anthology" CD, but I'm not sure. (I just checked out the All Music Guide - yeah, it was the Anthology CD from 1995). I think I remember him saying that the folks at Motown wanted everything really bright - more than he would have liked, but he wasn't the boss...

Is there any chance of DCC ever doing some Motown? That would be kind of cool...

[Grant]

Motown expert here!

I grew up on the stuff and listened to both mono 45s AND many stereo LPs.

Now, Dr. Winston O'Boogie wanted to know where the best mono mixes were. You have the Hitsville box. Good start! But, I understand that they used second generation copies for a couple of tracks because the originals could not be located or were too damaged. But THEY ARE THE CORRECT SINGLE MIXES!

THE TEMPTATIONS-The 5 disc box set "Emporers Of Soul" has virtually all of the singles mixes.

THE SUPREMES-You could pick up the Ultimate Collection or search fot the 1995 2-CD Anthology. Problem here is that they are a bit too bright on the 2-CD set AND "Someday, We'll Be Together" is still TOO FAST on both sets.

THE FOUR TOPS-I have not heard the new box yet so i'll have to say the "Ultimate Collection" should do.

MARTHA AND THE VANDELLAS-Either the "Ultimate Collection" or the Anthology should do.

THE JACKSON 5-They did have a few mono singles up to 1972. Problem is that they are scattered all over the place, and one, the original mono mix of "Who's Lovin'You" never made it to a J5 collection. The single mix of "Mama's Pearl" is on one of the old "Compact Command Performance" CDs Steve mentioned.

The newer stereo remasters of the individual albums are hit and miss. In fact, as Luke points out, all of the Motown CDs, new and old, are hit and miss. Motown seems to shift their reissue program around every couple of years. Once they get going they stop and change things with different engineers/producers. They are not even consistient with stereo/mono!

Steve is right, collect everything!

[Grant]

Steve H.,

I find it hard to believe you haven't heard the first Hitsville box yet. I think you may be pleasently surprised that the tracks DO sound the closest to the original 45s. Bill Inglot and Dan Herch used a restored mono tape deck with tube electronics, which is good for me because I first heard all of those Motown sides on a tube amp.

I did bring this up a few days ago, that DCC should remaster some Motown. I can't think of a better engineer to do this.

[Matt]

Just a warning on the Ultimate Collection CD's, they may have a good track selection for one disc, but the ones I've gotten for the Four Tops and the Supremes are mastered really hot. If you load them up on your computer, it looks even more frightening.

[Grant]

But as long as the sound is right and not distorted, what's the problem with maximum level?

[Angel]

No dynamics remain in the music. That is a big problem.

[Grant]

But the Motown 60s singles never had much dynamic range in the first place. They were compressed mono. So, what's the problem?

[Steve Hoffman]

Grant, the usual Motown song has about a 10 db dynamic range. When that is reduced to a 1 db dynamic range, it really tampers with the original mix intent. Tampering = revising history..... :mad:

My point being, yes the originals are compressed and perfectly easy to master just the way they are. Why compress them more? Because of a computer program called "maximize" or something? It's silly. The music was already maximized by the masters of maximizing: The original Motown engineers.

Anything else is total overkill and it makes me mad...

Go for the older Motown CD stuff, pre computer...

[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Steve Hoffman ]

[Grant]

I'm simply saying that perhaps the extra "maximizing" would not be quite as noticable with the Motown stuff, so the mastering guy could have thought he could get away with it.

Steve, I generally agree with you on the issue of maximizing.

But that Hitsville box did not have any compression added to it.

[Jeff H.]

I definitely agree with Steve that if you can track down original mono 45's of Motown stuff that really is your best bet. One Motown 45 I cherish is my original copy of the Jackson 5's "I Want You Back". No CD remaster, not even the Hitsville box can compare with the sound on that vinyl, INCREDIBLE!!!! The sound for the most part on the Hitsville Box Set that came out in '92 is quite good. Some of the UK Motown 2fer CD's have good mastering and are in stereo. The J5 2fer imports IMO, sound better than the US counterparts, no compression, and all of the dynamics and ambience of the original LP pressings. One other thing I hope for, is that Motown can find a master in their vault of Marvin Gaye's "Pride & Joy" that doesn't have that annoying dropout that's on the mono tape they've used for every recent reissue.

[Grant]

Originally posted by Jeff H.:
One Motown 45 I cherish is my original copy of the Jackson 5's "I Want You Back". No CD remaster, not even the Hitsville box can compare with the sound on that vinyl, INCREDIBLE!!!!

Well, I have an original pressing of that single that was made in the Phillipines. It was just hotter, that's all. I agree that that perticular single on the box set isn't as crisp. But the flipside, "Who's Lovin' You", the MONO mix, sounds fantastic on Rhino's "Beg, Scream & Shout" box.

The stereo mix of "I Want You Back" sounds weak. I don't know why Motown and everyone else keeps using it. And the mix is different than the stereo mix, Luke. :)