My new toy!!! A Tube Universal Mic Pre. / How to "Tube Roll"...

[Jamie Tate]

I just bought a new mic pre/EQ and I thought some guys around here might be interested in it. It's a Universal Audio and is based on the old Capitol console used for Sinatra, Beach Boy and Doors records. I think Steve has an EQ that is similar to the one in this unit, not sure if it's exactly the same or not. Anyway, here's (http://www.uaudio.com/products/2-610.html) a link to the Universal site. Lots of neat toys over there like the 1176 and LA-2A compressors. Great classic gear probably used on almost every record in your collection.

[Steve Hoffman]

Now you need six more channels and you can do a Frank Sinatra Jr. session in Western Studio B!

[Jamie Tate]

Originally posted by Steve Hoffman
Now you need six more channels and you can do a Frank Sinatra Jr. session in Western Studio B! :) :)

I read in the manual that Jack Joseph Puig has that original 610 console over at Ocean Way room A. He also has part of the TG series console used to record Abbey Road and Dark Side of the Moon. His studio is like a museum.

[audio]

Your new toy is a tight piece of gear! Wish I could afford something like that. I do most of my recording on digital hard disk recorders and I just bought the Bellari RP 583 tube limiter to "warm" things up a bit. I haven't tried it yet, but I am excited to do so. Can't wait to squash some cymbals and get some Revolver action flowing.

[Jamie Tate]

Originally posted by prix
Can't wait to squash some cymbals and get some Revolver action flowing.

You need to try out one of THESE. (http://www.chandlerlimited.com/tg1.html) It does make it sound just like Revolver:love: :love: :love:.

[Jamie Tate]

So, I've been playing CDs through this thing all night and decided to try something out. I recorded a song once with the gain stage set properly and a second time while I was overdriving the tubes a little. This thing is like a super smooth compressor. It really fattens up the song and gave it a sort of vintage sound. Pretty damn cool! I've been running some of my more 80's sounding CDs through it. Big improvement. Haven't played with the EQ yet. Don't know what it sounds like.

[Steve Hoffman]

Originally posted by yesman
So, I've been playing CDs through this thing all night and decided to try something out. I recorded a song once with the gain stage set properly and a second time while I was overdriving the tubes a little. This thing is like a super smooth compressor. It really fattens up the song and gave it a sort of vintage sound. Pretty damn cool! I've been running some of my more 80's sounding CDs through it. Big improvement. Haven't played with the EQ yet. Don't know what it sounds like.

Jamie,

Of course! That's what tubes do if overdriven; they compress, nicely. So nicely that I think you can see why some old tube studios didn't even NEED a real compressor.

That's why solid state gear sounds so, er, solid state. When it overloads, it just distorts. Urggh.

So, I'm curious. What are you going to be using this thing for? I'm thinking of trying one as a loaner for a while. Are you going to be using it for line level stuff or microphone work?

I use my old Ampex MX-35 mic/line mixer to add some tube goodness into crappy sounding recordings at line level. Works like a charm.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/s1-3.shtml

Too bad the Universal module doesn't have meters with it.

Don't forget: THE BRAND OF TUBE USED IN THERE RADICALLY CHANGES THE SOUND. IN GENERAL, KEEP CHINESE OR RUSSIAN TUBES OUT OF THERE. IT defeats the purpose of having vintage style gear without using real tubes: RCA clear tops, Telefunken, Mullard, Amperex Bugle Boy. If you've spent a bit on buying your new toy, give it the best sound you can!

End of lecture, sorry!

[Jamie Tate]

Originally posted by Steve Hoffman
So, I'm curious. What are you going to be using this thing for? I'm thinking of trying one as a loaner for a while. Are you going to be using it for line level stuff or microphone work?

I'm starting a new album next week that could be really important to me and we're going to be recording each instrument separately, during separate overdub sessions. I figured if I use this pre amp, my Tube Tech compressor (when needed) and my U-47 to record the instruments it'll give it a more classic sound. That signal path should be warmer than Florida. :) Could turn into mud also. I'll have to find out.

Tonight, I've just been running different CDs through it to learn its sound but plan on using it as one of my main front end pre amps. I may also mix through it too. Have to learn to trust it first. Just running through it without EQ makes things sound different. Have to make sure different=better.:)

I wonder how closely this design follows the original.

[Jamie Tate]

Let us know what you think of it if you try one out.

[Steve Hoffman]

Originally posted by yesman


I'm starting a new album next week that could be really important to me and we're going to be recording each instrument separately, during separate overdub sessions. I figured if I use this pre amp, my Tube Tech compressor (when needed) and my U-47 to record the instruments it'll give it a more classic sound. That signal path should be warmer than Florida. :) Could turn into mud also. I'll have to find out.

Tonight, I've just been running different CDs through it to learn its sound but plan on using it as one of my main front end pre amps. I may also mix through it too. Have to learn to trust it first. Just running through it without EQ makes things sound different. Have to make sure different=better.:)

I wonder how closely this design follows the original.

Jamie, it's supposed to follow the original quite closely, but remember, it has much more modern parts in it so the sound won't match exacty. I mean all the values are still solid and in the old gear that has been a lot of drifting. It's a pretty simple circuit.

I'm quite curious about your explorations with this thing so please keep me posted on this thread. I'm going to be doing a bunch of four-track mixes of classical stuff and I was thinking about using four channels of Uni to do it for that "sound" that I like. Straight line stuff.

Don't forget to do some tube rolling with it. You will be surprised at the way the sound changes when the 12AX7 is switched. Try a Telefunken first! Magic midrange without sag....

I'm excited now! Keep me posted!

[audio]

Jesus, I'd love it! What do they want for those? Around $3K?


Originally posted by yesman


You need to try out one of THESE. (http://www.chandlerlimited.com/tg1.html) It does make it sound just like Revolver:love: :love: :love:.

[Jamie Tate]

Originally posted by prix
Jesus, I'd love it! What do they want for those? Around $3K?

I think I paid $2,800 through a buddy deal. They retail for a little over $4,000 I think.

[audio]

Steve,
Are you suggesting using vintage NOS tubes as opposed to a newer Chinese or Russian tube?





Originally posted by Steve Hoffman


Don't forget: THE BRAND OF TUBE USED IN THERE RADICALLY CHANGES THE SOUND. IN GENERAL, KEEP CHINESE OR RUSSIAN TUBES OUT OF THERE. IT defeats the purpose of having vintage style gear without using real tubes: RCA clear tops, Telefunken, Mullard, Amperex Bugle Boy. If you've spent a bit on buying your new toy, give it the best sound you can!

End of lecture, sorry!

[Steve Hoffman]

Good guess! :)

[Pinknik]

What 4 track classical stuff? Huh, huh? Had you said 3 track, I might've thought you got the new Mercury SACD gig. Perhaps you should ask if they need help, they should appreciate your style of mastering after all.

[Jamie Tate]

I inserted it in my stereo bus today. I mixed six songs, most were older style country, nothing aggressive or beyond 100 bpm. I never noticed any degradation in fidelity running through the UA box which is good. I did notice it held the mix together nicely and I was able to back off on using my SSL compressor I usually have across my mix. I still haven't messed with the EQ.

Since I record to RADAR (24 track, 24 bit hard disc recorder) and mix to an Alesis Masterlink my whole recording chain is digital except for the analog board and outboard gear. Adding this UA pre amp added a nice fuzz to the mix that I think I'll fall in love with by 11am tomorrow. The bass is different too, more pillowy. It seems to have more girth and weight than normal. I was very pleased by what I heard today. Tubes baby!!:thumbsup:

[Steve Hoffman]

Reading through your statement, I gather that the dynamics of the original signal are compromised as they travel through the UA?

Not a bad thing, if one can back off a compressor, but I'm wondering why this should be. I think the thing needs to be broken in some more....

[Jamie Tate]

I had it running a little on the hot side intentionally. There's an input gain setting as well as the bigger knobs that adjust the output to the transformers. I had it coming in hotter than it was going out. I ran it a little more sensible on the tender love ballad and I didn't notice any significant compression going on, no more that you'd get with any other tube gear. I was just having some fun with it today and they were only demos.

[Steve Hoffman]

Sounds neat!

[audio]

So how can a vacuum tube improve with age? Could you explain to me in logical terms why a 30+ year old tube would sound better than a brand new Russian or Chinese tube? If anything, I would think it would be the other way around. I don't understand. My apologies if this is getting off the subject. I can post a new thread if need be. Please enlighten me.




Originally posted by Steve Hoffman
Good guess! :)

[Pinknik]

I don't think it's improving with age so much as it was done well in a particular way back then, which can't be (or at least, isn't being) duplicated in modern tubes. Perhaps the way a vintage automobile just has a certain something about its performance that can't be replicated by a new car, even if the new car is technically better. Maybe.

[Steve Hoffman]

Originally posted by prix
So how can a vacuum tube improve with age? Could you explain to me in logical terms why a 30+ year old tube would sound better than a brand new Russian or Chinese tube? If anything, I would think it would be the other way around. I don't understand. My apologies if this is getting off the subject. I can post a new thread if need be. Please enlighten me.






Prix, I sort of feel like I'm being trolled, dude. Judging by your equipment profile you are an audiophile. Are you HONESTLY telling me that although you know what an obscure tweak like a Shakti Stone is, you DON'T know what New Old Stock tubes are or what they do, or what tube rolling is? C'mon. You never once read an article in Stereophile, The Absolute Sound, Guitar Player or on the Internet about NOS tubes? I'm perplexed.

Just in case I'm wrong about this, and for you Audiophile and guitar playing newbies:

Tubes don't age. If it is not used and the vacuum has held, a tube from let's say 1950 is considered "brand new" or NOS. The golden age of tube design and manufacture was back then. The people who knew how to hand make tubes are all retired or dead. The best sounding tubes are pre-1968. There are literally thousands (thanks to Uncle Sam) of new old stock examples out there, dirt cheap. Why put a Chinese firecracker in your expensive tube gear when you can use the real thing?

[ybe]

Originally posted by Steve Hoffman


Just in case I'm wrong about this, and for you Audiophile and guitar playing newbies:

Tubes don't age. If it is not used and the vacuum has held, a tube from let's say 1950 is considered "brand new" or NOS. The golden age of tube design and manufacture was back then. The people who knew how to hand make tubes are all retired or dead. The best sounding tubes are pre-1968. There are literally thousands (thanks to Uncle Sam) of new old stock examples out there, dirt cheap. Why put a Chinese firecracker in your expensive tube gear when you can use the real thing?

Thanks for the info Steve, time to change the tubes in my guitar amp. Any other good brands besides the before mentioned RCA clear tops, Telefunken, Mullard, Amperex Bugle Boy? It's sad that nobody knows how to make these anymore.

And no, I'm not trolling, didn't mean to the last time, sorry Steve. :cool: Not so sure about prix, though. He almost got me with that cassette baking thread. :D

[Steve Hoffman]

Markus,

Any piece of hi-fi tube gear or tube guitar amplifier can be upgraded way up there by simply swapping out some tubes. The simpler the sound reproducing device, the MORE changing tube brands will alter the sound.

In GENERAL, for guitar amps, (and we are talking about JUST THE LITTLE TUBES HERE, NOT THE BIG OUTPUT TUBES), I prefer the dirt cheap US brands that probably came with the units originally. That's right, the lowly GE, Sylvania, Tung-Sol and other American 9-pin miniature tubes that still cost about $5.00 each! I never put expensive input tubes in guitar amps. No need. These are tubes with names like 12AX7, 12AU7, 12AT7 and octals like 6SN7, 6SL7, etc.

A place called Antique Radio Supply or Antique Electronic Supply has what you need for cheap!

NOW, the BIG tubes, the ones that make the power are called output tubes (duh). In Fender guitar amps usually 6V6GC, 6L6GC, EL-34, 6550, etc. In Vox and Matchless amps they are EL-84's. THESE TUBES CANNOT BE SWAPPED OUT WITHOUT READJUSTING THE BIAS. Usually only a qualified Amp tech can do this for you. Guitar amps are usually not self-biasing.

Does this help?

[ybe]

Thanks Steve, helps a lot.

I'll check what the local shops here have. I also have a (rather lame sounding) Marshall JMP-1 valve pre-amp which has two ECC83s. Some dude wrote on the Harmony Central web site that switching to Mullards gave great results. Propably a cheapo tube you suggested would have done it just the same.

It's confusing for a tube newbie (Tybe Nybe?)... Well, more money for buying vinyl.