Building new system - advice please?

[exiled]

You might get better feedback if you started your own thread! :)

Thought this was good advice so started a new thread. I'll re-print my original comment here:

Hi all,

New to the forums here - just discovered them last week. Already have learnt a lot from my few visits. I realise this is not the best thread to ask my question, however using seach I could not find a better thread.

I would appreciate any advice you could give me as I am about to purchase my first *real* stereo system. To give you some idea, I listen to mainly rock music - rolling stones, free, aerosmith, 80s hard rock, gram parsons, bowie, springsteen, billy joel, etc. I am also getting into old soul/motown stuff like otis redding, sam cooke, and can see myself getting into more jazz and blues later (but not listening to much at the moment).

My room is a decent size lounge room, and I listen predominantly to cds, but one of the main reasons for upgrading is to be able to play vinyl, and play it well.

So what I am planning on is:

Rega Apollo cd player
Rega P1 turntable
Cambridge Audio Azur 740a amp
Quad 12L2 bookshelf speakers

I'm planning to buy this all new, and the cost will be $4000 australian (which is about $3300 US.

Sorry for the long rant, but any advice on this system would be much appreciated (and if there is a more suitable thread please send me there!)

thanks

[I Am The Lolrus]

With that kind of budget, I wouldn't get bookshelf speakers- they just can't do the bass (I have found). Maybe with your size of room you can set them up to function well, but in my (Short) experience bookshelf speakers have a hard time comparing to those with dedicated subs.

[exiled]

You'll probably get a lot of advice soon, but I'll chime in early. Are you buying everything new (edit: see you are)? Do you have access to used (Ebay, Audiogon, local shops)?

The Quads are lovely speakers.. the finish is stunning and the sound is amazing for a small box. But I've decided over the years that by the time you buy solid stands, and then are tempted to add a sub, you ought to just get the best full range floorstander you can afford. I've been amazed at how much is "missing" from the recorded source without the lower octaves.. even male voices sound different (I discoverd this when I had the Quad 11Ls and had a remote on my little sub... the male voices filled out when a switched the sub in). And the Apollo CD player is world class.. you'll miss a lot of lower energy with smaller speakers. For really affordable, check out PSB Image series (45 or 55), and if you can find used, I'm a huge fan of my current speaker: Von Schweikert VR2 (don't forget the lead shot in bottoms)... I think they're an amazing value, and have bass down near 25 hz. They're also very efficient, the other advantage of many floorstanders. Good luck!

Hi Doug, I do have access to ebay, audiogon, etc, but since I live in Australia I find a lot of sellers either won't ship hardware here, or it will be really expensive to do so. As for second-hand, I don't really know any good places in Sydney for 2nd hand gear.

I agree with you about the bass - the Quads seemed like the best speakers I could get in the price bracket ($1000-1400au) but I am worried about the lack of bottom end - I don't need too much, but am worried that for rock I might feel that sometimes there is not enough.

[I Am The Lolrus]

Hi Doug, I do have access to ebay, audiogon, etc, but since I live in Australia I find a lot of sellers either won't ship hardware here, or it will be really expensive to do so. As for second-hand, I don't really know any good places in Sydney for 2nd hand gear.

I agree with you about the bass - the Quads seemed like the best speakers I could get in the price bracket ($1000-1400au) but I am worried about the lack of bottom end - I don't need too much, but am worried that for rock I might feel that sometimes there is not enough.

I think you will notice it- I did when I decided to dump my bookshelves for some old 3-ways with a 10" sub- Massive difference, simply far more musical!

[MikePh]

Hi exiled,

I've been researching this myself in recent weeks. :wave:

I have a new Rega P3-24 turntable on order (US$845 without cartridge) and felt it was best to spend a few extra bucks here than have to upgrade down the road.

For around the same price as the Cambridge Amp you're considering, i am leaning toward the Rega Mira 3 Integrated Amp.

\\http://www.rega.co.uk/index2.htm

Just my two pence. :cool:


I also agree that you can do better with this budget on speakers, so stay tuned...

[Randy W]

If you can swing it, I would skip the P1 and go straight to a P3-24 as well.

[Jay F]

Hi exiled,

I've been researching this myself in recent weeks. :wave:

I have a new Rega P3-24 turntable on order (US$845 without cartridge) and felt it was best to spend a few extra bucks here than have to upgrade down the road.

For around the same price as the Cambridge Amp you're considering, i am leaning toward the Rega Mira 3 Integrated Amp.

\\http://www.rega.co.uk/index2.htm

Just my two pence. :cool:

I also agree that you can do better with this budget on speakers, so stay tuned...
Why not go all-Rega?

http://www.rega.co.uk/html/R5.htm

[exiled]

Hi Mike, I am planning on *hopefully* not needing to upgrade too much down the road, hence why I like the idea of the P1....however from what I currently know and keep learning...audiophile quality gear is a slippery slope, so maybe i'm being a bit naieve!

[Ian Lascell]

Is the Cambridge amp an integrated? And if so, does it have a built in phono stage? I didn't notice one on your list, so thought I would ask.

Also, I think some bookshelves provide plenty of bass to be enjoyable. I'm not familiar with the Quads though, so can't comment specifically on them. But you must factor in the price of proper speaker stands to get the most out of them, and that does push them closer in price to floorstanders. I would say get whichever kind you prefer. They both have their strengths.

In your proposed setup, I think the Apollo CD player may outshine everything else. But it is a nice source to build a system around, so as long as you enjoy your CDs I think its a great choice.

[Dinsdale]

To confuse matters, I like my P2. It was a price consideration with me, however, which may not be the case for you. I've heard good things about the P3.

I also like big woofers in floorstanding speakers. They don't seem to be as prevalent these days in the home theater/subwoofer age.

[exiled]

In terms of going all Rega - adding a Rega amp and speakers - from the research I've done, a bit of listening, and talking to shop owners, having an all Rega system kind of puts too much of a Rega 'influence' on the sound. From what I know you want something good at the input stage - hence the apollo, and then the output at speaker stage- with as little 'influence' in areas in-between. This is why I was looking at the Cambridge and Quads.

[exiled]

I have factored the cost of stand in for the bookshelves - comparing for instance the quad 12ls on decent stands versus Dynaudios in floorstanders, I preferred the sound of the bookshelves. The dynaudios had too much bottom end and the vocals sounded much 'further back'.

The p2 + cart would cost me about $1000 or so versus $600 for the Rega...apart from the option to upgrade in the future, would it immediatley give much of an improvement to the sound?

As for the Cambridge amp, yes it is integrated. I am unsure if it has a phono stage - I don't think so, so I was hoping someone could clear that up for me and maybe offer suggestions? I was thinking if necessary adding the Cambridge 640p pre-amp...

[tommy-thewho]

I would go with a new cd player, turntable, but for the amplifier/speakers I would look for some vintage Pioneer, Sansui, Marantz, or Yamaha. Check out Audiokarma.org for some vintage speakers and receivers/amplifiers.

[Feisal K]

exiled,

perhaps you can have a chat with Steve at eastwoodhifi (http://www.eastwoodhifi.com.au/) about Paradigms :)

(i'm on the mailing list (http://www.eastwoodhifi.com.au/THE_SHOP.HTM) and he seems like a riot, but mostly I'm a Paradigm fan)

[ROLO46]

Oz E-Bay for speakers

Vintage if pos

Big Tannoys , JBL's, EV's, etc

Not japanese and no receivers.......

[brew ziggins]

Sam Tellig reviewed the Azur integrated in the current Stereophile and gave it a semi endorsement as opposed to a total thumbs up for the Azur 740C CD player. You might try and take a listen to the Rotel 1062.

The Quads could be a good call, but if you're buying new, you really should just go to as many shops as you can find and listen to everything in your price range. You're looking at a really competitive price point, but one where designers still have to make trade offs. Quad may have made decisions that put you off, while a similarly priced B&W or NHT or Totem or... might work for you.

[thommo]

Exiled, the 740 does NOT have a phono stage. The 640p is very good, though.

I'm not sure what listening you've done so far, but if I were in your shoes, I'd be looking to go up a step for source a Rega P2/3 and drop the amp down a step to a Rega Brio (got a good mm phono stage in it) or possibly a Cambridge 640a+640p and then look at getting speakers that tune the sound how you like it.

I'm a Cambridge owner (640a, 640c, 640p), but I'm also biased as I live no more than 20 miles from the Rega factory in Southend, and have heard a fair bit of Rega kit (owned a P3, borrowed a Brio, heard an Apollo), and I'm not sure I agree with the "Rega influence" bit as being a negative, either.

I don't think that a Cambridge amp is going to be particularly 'better' than a Rega, or exert less influence. It'll sound different, but not exert anywhere near as much variation as speaker choice will. Both the Rega and the Cambridge 640 can easily handle the Quad speakers, or alternatives/better.

Just something to think about.

[Dinsdale]

I have factored the cost of stand in for the bookshelves - comparing for instance the quad 12ls on decent stands versus Dynaudios in floorstanders, I preferred the sound of the bookshelves. The dynaudios had too much bottom end and the vocals sounded much 'further back'.

The p2 + cart would cost me about $1000 or so versus $600 for the Rega...apart from the option to upgrade in the future, would it immediatley give much of an improvement to the sound?



Speaker-wise, I changed my Advent bookshelf's for big woofer Mach II's years ago to get more of that volume of air moving. Big difference, even though I'm confident I could have a much better quality big woofer speaker. It's tough for me where I am located to walk into an audio store and find and test what I want because most everything is geared to tower speakers and subwoofers.

As far as the P1 v. P2 v. P3, I personally haven't compared one to the other, and don't have the most refined ears in this forum anyway. My priority is in taking care of my vinyl. It depends on the quality of your ears and how much vinyl you plan to be listening to, as to how much priority you place on getting a better table. You get a "better" tonearm with each table, as I understand what I've read here.

Others who know more here upgrade the Ortofon 5e in the P1 to their OM series cartridges; others stick with the 5e. It just depends. As far as the P2 and P3, I think with all Rega cartridges you have to change the cartridge to change the stylus. And you have to put spacers on the tonearm to put some other manufacturers' cartridges on the P2 & P3. Just things to consider that I've read on this forum...

[Ian Lascell]

I have factored the cost of stand in for the bookshelves - comparing for instance the quad 12ls on decent stands versus Dynaudios in floorstanders, I preferred the sound of the bookshelves. The dynaudios had too much bottom end and the vocals sounded much 'further back'.

The p2 + cart would cost me about $1000 or so versus $600 for the Rega...apart from the option to upgrade in the future, would it immediatley give much of an improvement to the sound?

As for the Cambridge amp, yes it is integrated. I am unsure if it has a phono stage - I don't think so, so I was hoping someone could clear that up for me and maybe offer suggestions? I was thinking if necessary adding the Cambridge 640p pre-amp...

Okay, sounds like you have the speakers under control. And since your amp is an integrated, you do not need a separate preamp. But yes, you will need to add a phono preamp. A couple of people in some other current threads mentioned that the Cambridge phono preamps were worthwhile. Creek and Pro-ject also make phono preamps in that same general class and receive good comments as well.

I think the Rega P1 will be a nice table to get started with, maybe you will be satisfied in the long term with it as well. But something to keep in mind is that if you can find a used Rega P3 (2000) with some people updating to the new one, you could get a significant step up in analog for not much more in price. The P3 would also be able to take advantage of further cartridge upgrades down the road. In other words, you could grow into it, sort of speak. In either case, I think you will be very happy with a Rega TT. They are reliable and easy to use.

[Jay F]

exiled,

perhaps you can have a chat with Steve at eastwoodhifi (http://www.eastwoodhifi.com.au/) about Paradigms :)

From eastwoodhifi.com.au: "Those of you who still believe that the Turntable and Record with it's clicks, pop's, hisses and lack of dynamic range still offers a better sound than modern day 24 bit CD's, DVD-A or SACD's should click here and never return!"

[Feisal K]

Steve is rather opinionated :D

[exiled]

Thanks for all the advice guys. Still a bit more research and listening to do I guess. Glad to know that I definetly need to add a phono stage, heard two different versions from guys in shops!

[aviserated]

Listen before you buy. It may take up to a week of good listening before you will be able to make a decision. Speakers will be the most important decision. Pick a speaker that sounds warm and is forgiving of bad sounding electronics.

[Dougr33]

Listen before you buy. It may take up to a week of good listening before you will be able to make a decision. Speakers will be the most important decision. Pick a speaker that sounds warm and is forgiving of bad sounding electronics.

I'm going to whole-heartedly agree with the first 3 sentences, and respectfully disagree with the last...

By definition, a "warm" speaker is innacurate (i.e. low-fidelity). You'll hear much about speakers that "are good for rock", "excel at string quartets", "tamed my crappy electronics". But a good speakers should be neutral, fast, and hopefully efficient (high sensitivity). Listen to the 3 best speakers you can afford with 1)very expensive equipement to see what they're capable of, and then 2) an amp closer to the power you can afford to see if you can live with their sensitivity.

The speakers you choose will 1) allow you to enjoy more of whatever's 'good' in your upstream components, and 2) allow you to more accurately judge what pieces you want to fit into your system. If you start playing the game of 'warm' this to compensate for 'harsh' this, and touched up with 'fragrant' phono cartridge, you'll become an addict, not an enthusiast. IMHO

[exiled]

So do I take it from the comment r.e. speakers that one should try and spend more on them? I have had people advise me different ways in "ratios" of cash to spend. Apparently the "purists" will say spend (for example) $1500 on cd player/turntable, 1500 on amp, 1500 on speakers. Then I have other people tell me that "no, as a general rule" - spend say 2000 on speakers, 1000 on cd player/turntable, 1000 on amp.

I mean I know there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to this, but it certainly seems that a) maybe I should aim higher than a P1 turntable, to leave options for future upgrades, and b)should aim higher and spend more on speakers.

At this stage I am still planning to buy gear new and not vintage/2nd hand - I just feel like I don't have enough knowledge at this stage to make good decisions on old gear.

If any one is curious this is one of the shops that has actually been really helpful for me. Gives you an idea of some brands/prices of hardware in Australia.

http://www.eeonline.com.au/