Strange new turntable cult? Idler drive fans.

[Pinknik]

I can't wrap my head around what this fella says:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/67/678043.html

Take that you belt drive, direct drive wackos.

[www.records]

I have never heard an idler TT with a DIY massive plinth, but they have been gaining momentum for the last 3 years. Those that have, swear they compete well with tables in the several thousand dollar range. There are even websites dedicated to converting old idler drives into giant killers.

[TONEPUB]

No matter what technology there is, whether it is turntables, watches, cars, whatever; someone who can't afford the good stuff always tries to kluge some obscure piece of junk together and claim it's a "giant killer"

There are no giant killers.

There is no substitute for quality, top shelf materials and skilled workmanship. This stuff costs money and there is no shortcut.

Ever seen a copy of a Ferrari that you wanted to park in your garage?

Granted, there is often a premium price to be paid for some of these items and it isn't always in direct proportion to the percieved quality difference, but you can't buy the good stuff for no money.

And it isnt getting built in peoples garages either.

The whole reason they stopped making idler drive tables was they had major problems with rumble and wow and flutter issues. The worlds most massive plinth will not make up for the deficiencies in that design.

That's like saying an upgraded steam powered car can compete on the grid of the 24 hours of LeMans. Wishful thinking but its not happening.

arrgh!

Ask Steve after hes had that Continuum going for about three days if he'll ever want to go back to that music hall or his Thorens.....

[Plinko]

new? Asians have been listening to replinthed idlers for a very long time. there was a South African dude who replinthed a Garrard back in the 80s.

[Plinko]

if I set up my rega P5 incorrectly, it's going to have major problems with rumble (and I have). let's take a look at mfg published specs:

Lenco L75 Wow and Flutter: .06%
VPI: .02%
Technics: .035%
Rega: no specs
SME: no specs
other tables: no specs!

Lenco L75 Rumble: -60db
VPI Rumble: > -80db
Technics: -79db
Rega: no specs
SME: no specs
other tables: no specs!

In the area of turntables, I believe measurements/specs and adherence to DIN standards were much stronger in the old days. Take that for what it is worth. Additionally, turntable reviews continue to not contain measurements. Even measure-happy Stereophile's John Atkinson does not measure turntables but he measures everything else. Strange.

Many people have different amps that produce different sound/distortion...why when it comes to turntables do we see the belt vs idler vs direct drive wars. Silly stuff! I'd like to have an awesome representative of all three methods of playback.

PS. And now we have not only Teres offering their rim drive but HW at VPI just reported that they will be offering the rim drive mod as well. Interesting times.

[audio]

No matter what technology there is, whether it is turntables, watches, cars, whatever; someone who can't afford the good stuff always tries to kluge some obscure piece of junk together and claim it's a "giant killer"

There are no giant killers.

There is no substitute for quality, top shelf materials and skilled workmanship. This stuff costs money and there is no shortcut.

Ever seen a copy of a Ferrari that you wanted to park in your garage?

Granted, there is often a premium price to be paid for some of these items and it isn't always in direct proportion to the percieved quality difference, but you can't buy the good stuff for no money.

And it isnt getting built in peoples garages either.

The whole reason they stopped making idler drive tables was they had major problems with rumble and wow and flutter issues. The worlds most massive plinth will not make up for the deficiencies in that design.

That's like saying an upgraded steam powered car can compete on the grid of the 24 hours of LeMans. Wishful thinking but its not happening.

arrgh!

Ask Steve after hes had that Continuum going for about three days if he'll ever want to go back to that music hall or his Thorens.....

Totally disagree. Steve's Music Hall isn't a rim drive, BTW. And technically neither is the TD-124 as it has a belt driving the rubber wheel.

A phenomenal idler-driven analog experience can be had for very little cash output if one is willing to put out the effort. There is no law written that states that there are no shortcuts. There certainly are. If you spend the time, do the research, and just use your ears.

There is unparalleled musicality, pace, rhythm, dynamics, presence, and authority in some of those "steam powered" vintage idler drives and there are most certainly those that are very much what they claim to be: giant killers.....which have been handsomely trashing the majority of the overpriced, sterile, and analytical sounding bogus jewelry (or mythical "good stuff" as you put it) for quite some time now.....and that's pretty much common knowledge at this point. And yes, there are scores of people who very much can "afford" the "good stuff", but deliberately and happily put together a vintage/hybrid/hot rod using an upgraded/refurbished old rim drive transcription/broadcast turntable as the heart of their analog setup and for excellent reason. As far as I'm concerned, the mass production of the belt drive turntable was the beginning of the death of analog. Again, we have the industry turning in a particular direction simply to cut costs...the lowly belt drive being much cheaper to implement.

"the BIG ONE(reason) —the one that everyone talks about when they talk about idler-wheel turntables—musicality. There is a life, an animation to the sound, which is just more involving. The music just sounds more like live music."

-Roger S. Gordon, Positive Feedback
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue25/garrard_401.htm


"It is said that the solidity, presence, body, speed, dynamics, soundstaging, noise floor and low-level detail retrieval of a fully restored and properly hot-rodded vintage Garrard 301 transcription turntable is equal to or above what the super tables of today can muster. It is also said that the aforementioned performance elements are icing on the platter so to speak, but not the primary reason for the Garrard 301's legendary status. The primary reason why Garrard 301s are so sought after is the overall musical involvement conveyed which is said to be way above anything else available today."

-Jeff Day, 6Moons.com
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/garrard/301.html


For those enthusiasts who aren't happy until they spend some real money, here is a link to the most satisfying and enjoyable turntable I heard at CES. It's only $22,000.

http://www.smartdev.com/lori-501.html
http://www.garrard501.com/garrard501.html

It would seem there is a way to overcome "major problems with rumble and wow and flutter issues" after all.


Oh, and here's a gorgeous idler wheel drive turntable from the '90s. Beautiful, isn't it?

[Curiosity]

I'm not altogether sure if measurements are everything as I never heard any noticeable wow and flutter on a 'decent' idler turntable. The BSR's and cheaper Garrards were poor by design and it was not that surprising the belt driven models soon wiped out this section of the market.
When direct drives were introduced great play was made of quartz controlled speed and instant start ups but it didn't take long for the first howls of protest to come from the audio community.

[jeff mai]

The march of technology is not as inevitably forward as some would like to believe, but there is ALWAYS a march towards lower manufacturing costs - especially if the marketing department thinks they can sell it. Music is trampled in the process and sometimes valuable knowledge is lost.

And this cult is not new! I'm looking at a Sound Practices magazine from 1993 extolling the virtues of the Garrard 301.

[jeff mai]

The Garrard 301 wasn't a changer.

[Damián]

No matter what technology there is, whether it is turntables, watches, cars, whatever; someone who can't afford the good stuff always tries to kluge some obscure piece of junk together and claim it's a "giant killer"
Right. Should those of us that cannot afford the good stuff just give up?

There are no giant killers.
I do not agree.

The whole reason they stopped making idler drive tables was they had major problems with rumble and wow and flutter issues. The worlds most massive plinth will not make up for the deficiencies in that design.
My Lenco L-75 has no wow nor flutter issues. It does have rumble, I'll give you that. But it's still in its original plinth.

Ask Steve after hes had that Continuum going for about three days if he'll ever want to go back to that music hall or his Thorens.....
That's the one with the $65K price tag, isn't it? There is no point in continuing this discussion :wave:.

[adhoc]

No matter what technology there is, whether it is turntables, watches, cars, whatever; someone who can't afford the good stuff always tries to kluge some obscure piece of junk together and claim it's a "giant killer"

There are no giant killers.

There is no substitute for quality, top shelf materials and skilled workmanship. This stuff costs money and there is no shortcut.

Exactly right. The fact remains that if you compare a Garrard 301/401, any 92X series EMT or a Thorens TD-124 to... just about any <$3000 (my estimate) belt-drive TT today, you win in terms of "quality, top shelf materials and skilled workmanship".

My 401 beats the pants off the Rega P-series or any ProJect when it comes to fit-and-finish. Heck, it even makes my LP12 look like a toy. It weighs about 16kg unplinthed. In the slate-plinth I am procuring for it, it will weigh ~35kg. It has a motor that looks like it could power a washing machine. A solid cast aluminium top plate. A beefy spindle. A completely mechanical linkage underneath all the switches. For chrissakes, it was used as a broadcast table by the BBC and run 24/7 in their stations.

Do you get this sort of quality anymore nowadays for sane money?

And there are bigger monsters out there. How about the EMT 927 with it's 2cm (not a typo) width spindle? Or the Commonwealth broadcast TT - possibly the manliest idler ever made?

I'm not saying that the "vintage" appeal has nothing to do with the popularity of these TTs - it indubitably does.

What I am saying is that it takes MORE than just "vintage appeal" to ensure sustainability of appeal or a cult following - namely "quality, top shelf materials and skilled workmanship", which I feel my Garrard has in heaps.

What happened to all those vintage Marantz TTs? Or those dime-a-dozen Hitachi TTs? Or how about the Aristons? All in all, proof that not all vintage stuff simply survives solely on account of being "vintage".

Times have moved on and so have business practices, and to make something like my 401 today would simply be prohibitive cost-wise.

My closing thoughts: "There are two kinds of fools. One says 'This is Old, and therefore Good.' The other says 'This is New, and therefore Better.'"- Robert A. Heinlein

[www.records]

No matter what technology there is, whether it is turntables, watches, cars, whatever; someone who can't afford the good stuff always tries to kluge some obscure piece of junk together and claim it's a "giant killer"

There are no giant killers.

There is no substitute for quality, top shelf materials and skilled workmanship. This stuff costs money and there is no shortcut.

Ever seen a copy of a Ferrari that you wanted to park in your garage?

Granted, there is often a premium price to be paid for some of these items and it isn't always in direct proportion to the percieved quality difference, but you can't buy the good stuff for no money.

And it isnt getting built in peoples garages either.

The whole reason they stopped making idler drive tables was they had major problems with rumble and wow and flutter issues. The worlds most massive plinth will not make up for the deficiencies in that design.

That's like saying an upgraded steam powered car can compete on the grid of the 24 hours of LeMans. Wishful thinking but its not happening.

arrgh!

Ask Steve after hes had that Continuum going for about three days if he'll ever want to go back to that music hall or his Thorens.....



I was not suggesting that someones $1500 project will compete with a $80,000 table with a $7,000 cartridge or park a Ferrari in their garage. I think we were more discussing possibilities for those of us who enjoy the hobby despite suffering plastic spoon in mouth syndrome. Most of us don't have the good fortune to be given, loaned or ability to buy a Continuum, Ferrari or other uppercrust jewelry. I don't have a problem with those that have this stuff available, I just dislike the snobbery that often accompanies it.

I would be interested in hearing you share your experience of actually sitting down and listening to a few of these better DIY replinthed Idler tables. Have you reviewed any of these or just dismissing these old "obscure pieces of junk" without any first hand experience from what some of these projects have achieved? Have you put your knowledge to work in attempting to build one for yourself and see what you can achieve, or is it easier just to wait for someone to give you something to listen to and snub those who put forth some sweat equity?

While your post may have some truth to it, it reeks of elitism.

Aaargh!

[adhoc]

Also, if this technology was so marvelous a much larger segment of T/T mfgs. would embrace it - even today instead of only lonesome Lenco.
Since when has (a great deal of) modern manufacturing been about quality and not about the (almighty) bottom line?

How easy is it to put together a decent belt drive? How easy is it to put together a decent idler drive? Ease and cheapness of manufacturing has nothing to do with quality.

Fuel economy is objectively a marvellous idea, yet the entire American auto industry hasn't quite cottoned on to it yet after so many years. Ditto for recycling and the world-at-large. The validity of an idea has nothing to do with its acceptance.

Their bread & butter products were changers. They were already wedded to that technology & took the path of greatest profit w/ least concern for any improvement.
Changers were a bread and butter product? You bet. The rest of your post - ********. You would know as any one of us that many (all?) companies sell "mass market" products to support a "statement" product. Is BMW's most popular selling car the 3 series or the Z series? Is Rega's most popular TT the P3 or the P9? Does Sony sell more (POS) "megabass" earphones or more Qualia headphones? Garrard had its SP25 changer, but it also had the 301.

And concern for improvement? In Garrard's case, the 401. It was ahead of its time and its reputation for dreadful audible rumble came from its unfortunate propensity to be sold together with hollow, lightweight, resonant plinths (mostly made by SME). We now know better though, and pair it with much bigger/heavier CLD or slate plinths that effectively kills any rumble.

[LeeS]

There are no giant killers.


There are many exceptions in audio; there are times when no correlation exists between sound quality and price. There often are giant killers and very high value for dollar pieces. I've seen the Benchmark DAC slay a few giants when it was introduced. The SoundDevices 722 is almost as good as $20K Weiss converters and it includes a mic preamp and hard drive.

That's one of the fun aspects of this hobby. With some knowledge you can assemble a good system for reasonable money. :)

[Spin Doctor]

Nevermind...

[audio]

As for credibility, these Ezines threw out the baby w/ the bathwater long ago.

Really? Hmmm....isn't Tone Audio an Ezine? :whistle:


I don't see your point. As the others have pointed out, there are new manufacturers of excellent repute who are adopting idler wheel drive technology.

As for the vintage units, we're not talking about crap like BSR or Montgomery Wards changers and I think that's obvious.

This is another example of exactly the kind of discouraging attitude that gives analog/hi-end a bad taste in people's mouths. It's manufacturers, dealers, and "real" magazines like Stereophile playing pocket pool. This "you can't afford to have the good stuff" attitude just doesn't fly. A $65,000 turntable? Who has that kind of money?

Finding the heart of the music and getting maximum enjoyment from your system has no fixed price tag. Having waded through piles of vintage and modern gear for the last ten years or so, up and down the totem pole of sticker prices, my conclusion is that the minute hi-fi starts really working is when people give up and start to "kluge some obscure piece of junk together". This is when the magic starts to happen and happy accidents occur. Unforeseeable syntheses of new and old technologies take place; "giant killers" are born.

Additionally, this approach is loads more interesting, magical, and educational than walking into audiophile shops or strolling around at CES scratching your head at just how bad most of this gear sounds while old men in Hawaiian shirts who smell of cigars and Aqua Velva try to convince you that you're hearing music for the first time and if only you could afford the "good stuff" you could have a system like this one. Yawn.

[phish]

that's a pretty killer looking table up there.

[Vinyl-Addict]

I don't see your point. As the others have pointed out, there are new manufacturers of excellent repute who are adopting idler wheel drive technology.


Adam I agree with some of your comments but what new manufacturers are "adopting" idler technology? Teres and VPI have not adopted idler technology, instead they have implemented a simpler but in no way the same concept as idler manufacturers of the past. HW and Chris Brady commented on this very subject just the other day on another forum.

[kudesai]

No matter what technology there is, whether it is turntables, watches, cars, whatever; someone who can't afford the good stuff always tries to kluge some obscure piece of junk together and claim it's a "giant killer"

Or is it that whenever you read these threads you feel the need to justify the enormous amounts of money that you spend on equipment. BTW, do you really have to refer to other peoples equipment as junk? I do not think anybody here was disparaging your choice of equipment.

There are no giant killers.

I think you need to brush up on the meaning of giant killer.

There is no substitute for quality, top shelf materials and skilled workmanship. This stuff costs money and there is no shortcut.

Did it ever occur to you that the dollar figure of these high end turntables is not based on the high cost of materials, but the high cost of development spread over a small production run? This is know as economies of scale. If I were to develop a Garrard 301 from scratch and only produced 10,000 of them, it would cost a fortune. If it did, would you buy it and then tell me it was the best thing out there?

Ever seen a copy of a Ferrari that you wanted to park in your garage?

Ah yes the old Ferrari analogy. You like this one don't you? Well, I am not sure which clones you are referring to, but if what your are saying is, is there a sports car that you would rather have in your garage that is a "better automobile" than the Ferreri, then the answer would be yes. And I would have enough money left over to buy a number of other luxury cars.

Granted, there is often a premium price to be paid for some of these items and it isn't always in direct proportion to the percieved quality difference, but you can't buy the good stuff for no money.

Hmmm, perceived. I will agree with you there. Can't buy the good stuff for no money? Ok, how about for 1/10 the price, or even a 1/4?

The whole reason they stopped making idler drive tables was they had major problems with rumble and wow and flutter issues. The worlds most massive plinth will not make up for the deficiencies in that design.

That's like saying an upgraded steam powered car can compete on the grid of the 24 hours of LeMans. Wishful thinking but its not happening.

More spurious car analogies. We are not talking about hand cranked Victrolas here.

Ask Steve after hes had that Continuum going for about three days if he'll ever want to go back to that music hall or his Thorens.....

Well if it is not costing him anything then what is the point of this statement? Oh, maybe you can get the good stuff for free! And more power to you if you can. I hope Steve falls in love with it. That does not relegate the other products out there to Victrola land.

[audio]

Adam I agree with some of your comments but what new manufacturers are "adopting" idler technology? Teres and VPI have not adopted idler technology, instead they have implemented a simpler but in no way the same concept as idler manufacturers of the past. HW and Chris Brady commented on this very subject just the other day on another forum.

Well, other than Loricraft...there are rumors circulating on the web about various manufacturers looking into developing these systems. I don't know much about what's going on currently with Teres and VPI, and it doesn't really interest me. I doubt very much performance vs price will be on par with a properly restored and tweaked vintage machine in this category, but it is interesting that current companies are taking notice. It gives me hope that maybe there are more people out there in the design industry than previously thought who are listening. It really doesn't matter either way, though. I parted ways with adopting contemporary Kool-Aid long ago. For the most part I've stopped paying attention to brand names, prices, specifications, publications, reviews, and recommendations and building a system is very much a spiritual and visceral experience as opposed to analytical and cerebral. All of us have the answers and all of us can feel what sounds right and what is working. The problem is that we've let a profit-motivated industry convince us that newer and more expensive=better when in many cases the opposite is true and now we have people running around, over-complicating things on an endless search for nirvana, and doubting their very own intuition because of the illegitimate claims of some ignoramus who is selling hood ornaments.

I had been hearing about the idler wheel drive phenomenon for a while and finally decided to experiment with it at my system and I've found it to be a highly rewarding experience. Even a cheap idler wheel machine such as the Dual 1229, for example, has a way of conveying the heart, soul, and drive of the music in a way that is immediately recognizable and immediately addicting.

[Pinknik]

What a little discussion I've started. I haven't heard an idler drive table, but my primary thought, concerning the post at the Vinyl Asylum, is I can't understand how a table that has so much vibration that you can feel it in the tone arm can sound better (subjective, to be sure) than a Linn LP12. It seems to me like . . . are you ready for it? . . . that it has more distortion that we somehow find pleasant. Which, of course, is what vinyl lovers, in general, are sometimes accused of by the digital front. Some 78 lovers swear by the fact that nothing quite compares to the sound of those old scratchy shellac discs, when it comes to presence and that "real" feel. Ditto for single ended tube lovers. What is it about distortion, or a certain kind of distortion, that we relate to, or crave? Steve loves his Garrad and Thorens, so I'm very curious to read what he thinks about the Continuum, on its own merits, and in comparison to those older models. Interesting.

[jeff mai]

There is a fairly recent published paper by JAES member Dr. Earl Geddes demonstrating that even large amounts of low order distortion (as is prevalent in a SET, for example) is basically INAUDIBLE on music signals. This was concluded through a large group individuals participating in double blind listening tests. You guys claiming that some of us "like distortion" are going to need to come up with a new tune.

[Pinknik]

There is a fairly recent published paper by JAES member Dr. Earl Geddes demonstrating that even large amounts of low order distortion (as is prevalent in a SET, for example) is basically INAUDIBLE on music signals. This was concluded through a large group individuals participating in double blind listening tests. You guys claiming that some of us "like distortion" are going to need to come up with a new tune.

Well, I didn't say it was fact, just what we get accused of sometimes. Here goes, however. Um, perhaps the distortion IS inaudible, but has a direct effect on the central nervous system, perhaps releasing endorphins. Huh, huh? :D

P.S. Double blind listening tests don't work. :)

[jeff mai]

P.S. Double blind listening tests don't work. :)

I agree with this statement, BUT the typical persons making claims that some of us "like distortion" don't. BTW, sighted tests don't work very well either.

[HiFi Guy 008]

I didn't know Steve had a Thorens 124 and a Garrard (3/401, I assume.)

I love the Linn sound when it's properly set up with the $10,000 worth of add-ons and another $10,000 worth of amps, speakers in a properly tuned room.

And I was as skeptical about the idler thing as anyone else. After all, there is another aspect to this trend - the Vintage cult.

But nothing prepared me for the emotion coming out of a Thorens TD-124 MkI with a very humble setup. At first I thought maybe forward was the word to describe this, but now I don't think so. I found myself playing records I'd thought were headed for the Thrift store - and enjoying them.

The Pretenders II lousy Columbia Record Club pressing just about blew the windows out. Talk Talk's "Dum Dum Girl" reached out and grabbed me and made me feel the sorrow - a very sad song that sounds chirpy and grumpy on any cd version.

And this was with a mediocre AE tonearm and Shure M3D vintage cart, cheap Pfanst. stylus (never use one of these on records you care about!) old cheap cables, unlevel setup, etc.
I'm currently upgrading so I wont fear ruining my records (I've only played junkers so far.)

By the time the Thorens TD-124 MkI is up to an acceptable level of performance (tonarm, mat, bearing, cartridge, spacers, level adjusters, belt, checkup, armboard, cables, new phono stage) this table will have cost, in time and money, about the same as a recent model used Linn.

Giant killer? No. The original Giant!
:)