Late model CDs sound worse on 1 setup. Why?

[8tracks]

I am not an audiophile. I don't think I've ever spent more than $250 on any stereo equipment unit. I cannot tell the difference between a high bit rate mp3 file and its respective uncompressed song. I had no clue about the loudness wars before I showed up at this forum late last year.

In my house I have:
S1) An early 70s Sansui 2000x receiver powering Paradign Titan speakers w/ a 10 year old Sony 5 disc player

S2) A recent Onkyo TX-SR502 receiver powering Polk RM 6800 5.1 speakers with a Pioneer DV-578A DVD

S3) A mid 80s Onkyo TX-65 receiver powering Bose Bookshelf speakers with a 15 year old Technics 5 disc player

If I play any CD from 15+ years ago on any of the above, it'll sound the same to me. If I play something recent (like The Search by Son Volt or The Fragile Army by The Polyphic Spree) it'll sound decent, albeit with modern mastering, on S1 and S3 (plus my cars, headphones, etc.), but sounds horribly muddy on S2, regardless of if I'm using the multichannel RCA inputs or the Optical Digital Input. Can anyone tell me or guess why this is?

[Gary]

What are your interconnects/speaker cables on these systems?

[8tracks]

What are your interconnects/speaker cables on these systems?I'm embarassed to state I don't know the term "interconnects", but if they are the RCA Cables, they are some gold-plated Monster knock-offs, but I cannot remember the brand, although it was one I was familiar with. The speakers are wired with (again don't know the brand) 14 guage copper wire running 25-30 feet to the furthest speaker. The Surround set-up sounds great to me when playing SACDs, Redbook DTS discs and DVDs, but just not recent CDs.

[Gary]

I'm embarassed to state I don't know the term "interconnects"....

Oh, sorry... it's just the wire running between the CD player and the receiver.

So an 'interconnect' is the wire(s) from the CD player to the receiver while a cable is the wire(s) from the receiver to the speakers. Some people say 'cable' when they really mean 'interconnects'.... but that's another story. :)

If they are all the same within the three systems, it's not because of the wire.

It's possible that the Pioneer has a significantly different redbook (CD playback) sound to it than your other players. If I remember correctly, it sounded better than my old Technics 5 disc carousel player (the one where the top 'flips up' like a turntable cover).

Have you switched the Pioneer with the Technics 5 disc player?

[Metoo]

It might simply be a case of the DACs (Digital to Analog Converters) clipping more easily in that player with maximized and ultra compressed material due, most probably, to the fact that they are of lesser quality (or, perhaps even, older) than those in the other players.

You see, some DACs are very sensible to any music that goes near 0FS (full scale), some even start distorting starting at -2dB or so.

This is why most of us who do digital recordings keep on mentioning the importance of leaving some head space in our recordings. That is, make sure that the music peaks don't go above -3dB.

If you want a more technical explanation let me know.

Hope this helps. :)

[8tracks]

Some people say 'cable' when they really mean 'interconnects'.... but that's another story. :)
Great. That's anothing thing that I'll go from doing to being annoyed by others who do it. (Like "Daylight SavingS Time" or "That doesn't jiVe with me" :) )

I have not tried swapping disc players. With my small kids around, I get limited time with the surround sound system, so I usually play an SACD when I'm in there. I've lived with this recently-mastered-redbook problem for a while, so it's not killing me. (The fact that Sony pulled the plug for more SACD rock releases in the states is killing me, though. :) ) I will try connecting another disc player when I get the chance.

[8tracks]

It might simply be a case of the DACs (Digital to Analog Converters) clipping more easily in that player with maximized and ultra compressed material due, most probably, to the fact that they are of lesser quality (or, perhaps even, older) than those in the other players.
That makes a lot of sense. I know my cheap player has problems playing some DVD-Audio discs (which some say can be corrected via firmware, but may screw up SACD playback), so I wouldn't be surprised if they skimped on the DAC either.

But... if I play CDs via the Digital Optical connector input, wouldn't I then be using the receiver's DAC, and not the player's? (Or is the optical signal compressed during redbook playback?) I believe the bad sounds are the same whether using Optical connector or the 6 RCA connectors for the hi-res surround.

[Metoo]

That makes a lot of sense. I know my cheap player has problems playing some DVD-Audio discs (which some say can be corrected via firmware, but may screw up SACD playback), so I wouldn't be surprised if they skimped on the DAC either.

But... if I play CDs via the Digital Optical connector input, wouldn't I then be using the receiver's DAC, and not the player's? (Or is the optical signal compressed during redbook playback?) I believe the bad sounds are the same whether using Optical connector or the 6 RCA connectors for the hi-res surround.
If you are using the digital connection then the DAC you are hearing will surely be that of your receiver. Are all players connected to the same receiver? If not, it could be an interconnect issue. Some interconnects (usually RCA wires between your player and amp) of lesses quality, or incompatible with your rig, tend to put out a shrill, harsh sound.

BTW, recheck to make sure that you are hearing bad sound out of both the digital and analog connections.

Is the player we are talking about a Pioneer? If so, instead of setting it up for 'fixed' volume output, set it at 'variable' and all channels to '0' (not + or - values) volume. The 'fixed' setting sets the volume at +6.

[bhazen]

I am not an audiophile.

Yes you are.

[Gary]

I am not an audiophile.

Yes you are.

He's right, you know. You are concerned by the sound quality differences...

It has nothing to do with the amount your system is worth, if your ears are made of gold (wouldn't your head be really, really heavy???) or whatever hoity-toity "qualification" one wants to invent or imagine.

:)

[Metoo]

if your ears are made of gold (wouldn't your head be really, really heavy???)
No wonder I regularly suffer from a stiff neck.

;) Just joking.

Hey! I just found out that Buddha was the first audiophile: http://www.faraway.co.th/photos%5Csightseeing%5Cbig_buddha_L.jpg (Check out his golden ears). Thanks for the heads up, Gary. :)

[8tracks]

He's right [you are an audiophile], you know. You are concerned by the sound quality differences...

It has nothing to do with the amount your system is worth, if your ears are made of gold (wouldn't your head be really, really heavy???) or whatever hoity-toity "qualification" one wants to invent or imagine.

:)

How 'bout that? My definition had always been something like someone capable of discriminating bewteen different models of audio equipment and discriminating between two masterings of the same recording while usually pursuing a desire to upgrade hardware and/or currently owned recordings.

I do care about sound quality. I'd just prefer to spend money more on recordings I don't have than equipment.

[Scott J]

I have a Pioneer DV 578 that I used for my primary listening device for over a year. I knew the SACD's, and DVD-A's sounded excellent on it, but the Redbook never impressed me too much.

I didn't realize how lacking the Redbook on the DV 578 was, until I bought a Denon player a few months ago. The DV 578 has been relegated to the home theater set-up, and will never be a primary listening device again for me.

[8tracks]

I've got to leave town for a bit, but I hope to try a different player in a week or so. If an older player sounds better I may also check into getting a Denon player, but before I do that I need to try Metoo's suggestion of setting my player "at 'variable' and all channels to '0' (not + or - values) volume."

In the beginning I was thinking the poor sound had something to do with highly compressed/loud music being separated between a subwoofer and satellite speakers, but an ineffective or limited Redbook playback "feature" sounds more likely.

[Metoo]

In the beginning I was thinking the poor sound had something to do with highly compressed/loud music being separated between a subwoofer and satellite speakers, but an ineffective or limited Redbook playback "feature" sounds more likely.Which would take us back to the DAC issue.

[morinix]

How 'bout that? My definition had always been something like someone capable of discriminating bewteen different models of audio equipment and discriminating between two masterings of the same recording while usually pursuing a desire to upgrade hardware and/or currently owned recordings.

I do care about sound quality. I'd just prefer to spend money more on recordings I don't have than equipment.You care enough to post this problem here. You have just crossed over:winkgrin:

[morinix]

I seem to remember issues many had with "bass management" on the DV-578.

[terra1]

If you think it's the D578 you might try switching out the player to any of your other setups to see if it's not the speakers, cables, receiver or combination thereof.

I used to think it was the CD mastering when using my Sony system but I had to go through a series of things that actually improved the sound. I have a systems consisting of components 10 years old or older.

I had decent monster cable interconnects.

Speaker Cracks: When adjusting the brilliance controls on the speakers, I noticed there were cracks in the surround foam of the woofers. (Disclaimer: Not recommended should be done by professionals. But this is what I did: I used some silicone rubber sealant to apply a temporary fix, dabbing and spreading with flat toothpicks. I had to be careful because some of the foam was actually crumbly.)

Improved sound dramatically. Harsh bright CDs I could not listen were now listenable.

Clean & Lube: My CD player was making a mechanical high-pitched sound. I lubed the spindles of the clamping mechanism in my Sony CD changer [it's been 10 years w/o cleaning and maintenance). Noticeably reduced more harshness (maybe distortion?).

Low Filter: Also if your receiver has a Low Filter On/Off switch that can make a difference in bass. For my Sony set On if using a separate amped subwoofer. Off if not using a separate subwoofer. I also have an impedance selector 8/4ohm from which I can't really tell much difference even when driving four speakers.

Other Stuff:
Also I think using EAC to make copies helps with some CDs because I'm playing clean unscratched CDs.

I don't claim to be an audiophile, but I do admit to being anal:

I noticed old CDs had squiggly scratches on the edge and midway about where the CD rests on the tray.

Also not recommended but what I did: I sanded the grooves of the CD tray where the lens unit travels. I noticed when running my finger of the edge of the groove they were quite sharp. Just the raised parts where the regular CDs would rest or fall. (I placed a piece of paper towel underneath to catch particles. I wiped up with damp paper towel.) I don't know if that was really the problem but new CDs have not shown any new scratches.

So barring any number of fail points these at least were in my control. routine maintenance can be very helpful. I have some other systems. Which allowed me to be more daring experimenting on this older system -- because I knew I had backup! :D

[8tracks]

I tried connecting two different older CD players to S2, but neither improved the sound of the offending CDs. Not all recent discs sound bad, as Wincing the Night Away by The Shins doesn't sound nearly as muddy as the Son Volt and Polyphonic Spree ones.

My conclusion for now is that I'm not nearly as offended by the over compressed/loud masterings of recent CDs when listening in the car or out of bookshelf speakers as I am out of a subwoofer/satellite set up. Next week I'll test this by connecting bookshelf speakers to S2.