If cartridge and cable burn in is so important,

[McIntosh]

why don't they come burned in?

At the prices some of these items go for, wouldn't the manufacturer want to make sure you get the best out of the product when it arrives?

Acoustic guitars open up after time. A good guitar will get better, but a bad guitar is never going to be good.

Is it the same for burn in?

Will a good cable/cart just get better, but a bad one will never be good?

[phish]

i know a fellow who highly recommends 24 - 36 hours of constant white noise at normal listening level for headphones. i've just recently learned of cable burn-in. i suspect because the most expensive cables i have are just under a hundred bucks a piece..

edit: i agree with you on the "ready out the box" concept.

[Blackie]

Cables should probably be referred to as being "warmed up" vs. "broken in" because if they are sitting unused for a while they will revert to their original state. That is a primary reason cable manufactures don't burn-in the cables, besides the extra cost of doing so. Speakers on the other hand are primarily a mechanical break-in so once they have been run-in they don't need anything beyond a few minutes to warm up the voice coils after that.

[semidetached]

I am going to ask a stupid question about burn-in.

Is the recommended burn-in time CONSTANT? Uninterrupted?

[Ski Bum]

My dealer offers a free burn-in service on a VIDAR system with a purchase of Nordost cables. (I guess the margins must be pretty good.)

[Casino]

If you hear it, fine - knock yourself out. I have a hi-rez sytem (ribbon tweeters) and I've never heard cables "change their sound" no matter what is done to them. Nor has anyone ever seemed to be able to explain why they should (but people seem to "think" they hear some change or other). OK, go for it, but it's just a piece (or multiple pieces) of wire with some connectors.

A cartridge is a mechanical device (as is a speaker) with moving parts, so maybe one could argue a better case for those...


My dealer offers a free burn-in service on a VIDAR system with a purchase of Nordost cables. (I guess the margins must be pretty good.)

You got that right... :)

[bdiament]

I am going to ask a stupid question about burn-in.

Is the recommended burn-in time CONSTANT? Uninterrupted?

Hi Craig,

Not a stupid question at all. A good one in fact.

In my experience, burn-in is cumulative. It does not have to be constant.
A certain amount of hours of playing time have to elapse. More playing time just makes that interval pass more quickly.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[bdiament]

why don't they come burned in?

At the prices some of these items go for, wouldn't the manufacturer want to make sure you get the best out of the product when it arrives?

Acoustic guitars open up after time. A good guitar will get better, but a bad guitar is never going to be good.

Is it the same for burn in?

Will a good cable/cart just get better, but a bad one will never be good?

Hi McIntosh,

I suspect a good part of the reason is it takes time and that costs money. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't want to pay extra when all I have to do is play music through the component/cable for a while. I guess some folks would be willing to pay to not have to do that.

My guitars and my cars didn't come broken in either. Neither have any of the shoes I've purchased in my life. And I'd rather break-in my own clothes, especially jeans too. (The pre-softened ones are always cheesy to me and not the same anyway.)

As to your last question, in my experience, everything gets better. There has only been one thing (a cable) I've ever experienced where I could not detect marked improvements across the board (and I didn't much like that cable either).

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[semidetached]

In my experience, burn-in is cumulative. It does not have to be constant.
A certain amount of hours of playing time have to elapse. More playing time just makes that interval pass more quickly.

Thanks for the info, Barry. This is all new to me, your knowledge is definitely appreciated.

[Mike in OR]

In my opinion cable burn in is important relative to what is being burned in......ime, the phono is a must. It has such a small signal running through it, it could potentially take years belive it or not (all relative to the amount of cumulative playing time). Whereas, if you put it on a well engineered burner for a day or two, it can make a large improvement, at least it did for me running the Nordost Tyr phono.

[Shakey]

I like Mr Diament's analogy, and I certainly would not like to have my shoes being broken in by someone who's feet are different than mine, however so little. Same can be said about the electrical signal and loads presented by your particular gear.

[Vinyl-Addict]

My guitars and my cars didn't come broken in either. Neither have any of the shoes I've purchased in my life. And I'd rather break-in my own clothes, especially jeans too. (The pre-softened ones are always cheesy to me and not the same anyway.)

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

:biglaugh: Barry, Are you related to Andy Rooney? :biglaugh:

[Grant]

Cables should probably be referred to as being "warmed up" vs. "broken in" because if they are sitting unused for a while they will revert to their original state. So, if that's the case, one would probably have to play the stereo almost all the time.

[bdiament]

:biglaugh: Barry, Are you related to Andy Rooney? :biglaugh:

Not in any way I know of.:sigh:

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[Blackie]

Here's a good link from the Cardas website that goes into some detail about this issue:
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=12&pagestring=Cable+Break-In

[Gary]

I am going to ask a stupid question about burn-in.

Is the recommended burn-in time CONSTANT? Uninterrupted?

No question is stupid. But I´ve seen some answers.... :sigh:

:D

I burn on my cables at least 25 hours. I do this to avoid harshness. Break in - to my ears - means that the harshness - shirllness goes away. It does not have to be constant.

As usual YMMV. :shrug:

[Grant]

Any response to the assertion a few posts ago that cables go back to their original state if not used for a while, and must be re-burned it?

[Scott Wheeler]

why don't they come burned in?

At the prices some of these items go for, wouldn't the manufacturer want to make sure you get the best out of the product when it arrives?

Acoustic guitars open up after time. A good guitar will get better, but a bad guitar is never going to be good.

Is it the same for burn in?

Will a good cable/cart just get better, but a bad one will never be good?

I don't think cartridges are "burned in" but "broken in." In fact cartridges (moving coils) seem to benefit from demagnitization after extensive use.

[Mal]

In order to test cable "burn-in" affecting the sound you would have to get two brand new cables that can't be distinguished under test conditions and then "burn-in" one and repeat the test to see if they can be distinguished.

Has such an experiment ever been conducted?

Just because you think you hear a difference doesn't mean there is one......

[bdiament]

In order to test cable "burn-in" affecting the sound you would have to get two brand new cables that can't be distinguished under test conditions and then "burn-in" one and repeat the test to see if they can be distinguished.

Has such an experiment ever been conducted?...

Hi Mal,

I've posted before saying just this to folks who suggest cable (or other component) burn-in is a function of the listener getting "used to" the sound.

I've listened to many different types of cables (and components) burn in and on my system, I have a good grasp of how the sound evolves through the process. (In all the years I've been doing this, I've only encountered one cable where I did not clearly hear a change as a result of break-in. That was not a great cable to begin with and was not a great cable at the end.)

I've done the multi-cable test myself, having a bunch of identical interconnects. Some pairs remained unused while the first two pairs burned in over the course of a few weeks. Upon inserting one of the unused pairs, I could easily hear the sound revert to the "first day" sound. Putting the burned in cable back in restored the "final" sound.

I took "test conditions" to indicate an experienced listener (in my case, yours truly) using via a system with which one is intimately familiar (in my case, in my studio). And most importantly, since we're describing a sound, to my mind, listening is the only logical way of evaluating it.
I know of no numeric measurements that will reflect the changes occurring from break in. This does not mean of course that they don't exist, simply that I don't know of any. George Cardas talks about changes in the dielectric and perhaps these can be enumerated.

Have you ever listened to a cable burning in?

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[bdiament]

Any response to the assertion a few posts ago that cables go back to their original state if not used for a while, and must be re-burned it?

Hi Grant,

In my experience, I would not say the cables "go back to their original state". At least not from simply being unused. Perhaps moving them around may bring this about - I've never tried this but George Cardas talks about this.

If anything, if the system has been off for a long time but otherwise undisturbed --say when I've been away for a week or two-- there might to be a partial loss of the full break in. However, I tend to think this is not so much the cables -or other components- "losing" any of the break-in as a slightly longer version of daily system "warm up". (Whenever I first turn the system on, I've always found it takes a good half hour before it reaches its stride.) I say this because full system performance is arrived at --in this case, restored-- much more quickly than the amount of time it takes for break-in. It seems more like a matter of hours than days.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[Mal]

...I took "test conditions" to indicate an experienced listener (in my case, yours truly) using via a system with which one is intimately familiar (in my case, in my studio)....

Hi Barry :wave:,

for a meaningful test you'd need some way of separating your knowledge of which cable was being used from the listening test. Ideally, you'd have someone else changing the cables for you and then you see of you can distinguish the cables.

I'm not saying you are wrong about the "burn-in" you hear but I think many people don't realise just how easily the brain is fooled into detecting a difference that doesn't exist when it is aware of a change in the experimental set-up.

...Have you ever listened to a cable burning in?...

I've never heard a difference with burn-in although I can hear the difference between different cables and the difference a warm-up makes for electronic components.

I struggle with the idea that an audible affect from cable burn-in can be reliably detected by casual listening (ie non-rigourous testing as described above).

:)

[bdiament]

Hi Mal,

...for a meaningful test you'd need some way of separating your knowledge of which cable was being used from the listening test. Ideally, you'd have someone else changing the cables for you and then you see of you can distinguish the cables.

I'm not saying you are wrong about the "burn-in" you hear but I think many people don't realise just how easily the brain is fooled into detecting a difference that doesn't exist when it is aware of a change in the experimental set-up...

We may differ in our conclusions about the value (or not) of blind testing. I can understand the desire for it but experience has made me more than skeptical of its efficiencies with regard to the experience of listening to audio as reproduced by a system.

While it is true the brain can be fooled, from my perspective, this applies either to listeners who lack enough experience and/or systems-setups that lack the resolving power. I have complete confidence in the reports of some of the experienced listeners I know and in my own auditions when they have taken place repeatedly and remained consistent over a long period of time.

By the way, I have on many of these occasions not known which particular item I was listening to at a given moment. This has not altered the results. As a related aside, I was recently at a meeting of a local audiophile society and as soon as I entered the room, was put in the "hot seat" and asked to describe what I was hearing in a comparison of two CD-Rs. As soon as the first one started to play --and the album was not familiar to me-- I asked if I was listening to a high speed copy. I described characteristics in the sound which I've heard from high speed copies in the past. No one responded until I listened some more. Then I was told that first CD-R was made at the burner's highest speed.


...I've never heard a difference with burn-in although I can hear the difference between different cables and the difference a warm-up makes for electronic components.

I struggle with the idea that an audible affect from cable burn-in can be reliably detected by casual listening (ie non-rigourous testing as described above).
:)

I suppose, like all things, it depends on the listener/system/setup. When the listener is experienced enough, the system resolving enough and the setup correct, my experience has been that things like cable burn-in are downright obvious (except as I've noted in only one case in my entire experience).

If one is well atuned to the sound their system produces, hearing a brand new cable evolve sonically over the course of four or five days is a revelation. If you can hear the difference in the sound of your system from cold turn on to 30 minutes later when it is "cooking", you have a good idea of how cables change. To my ears, the change in cables is larger and more in line with brand new speakers vs. the same speakers after a month of music has passed through them.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

[Mal]

The difference between a cold start and the system 30 - 60 minutes after being on is subtle yet huge at the same time. I mean, I don't suppose any of my friends or family would notice but to me it lacks the magic until it has warmed up.

I've certainly never noticed this kind of difference happen over the "burn-in" period with new cables.

Has this phenomenon really never been scientifically tested?

Maybe I should start an audiophile research institute - it seems there are loads of phenomena in audio that could do with more robust scrutiny (bit-identical CDs anyone?.....).

:)

[Grant]

I'm not saying you are wrong about the "burn-in" you hear but I think many people don't realise just how easily the brain is fooled into detecting a difference that doesn't exist when it is aware of a change in the experimental set-up. Hi Mal,

I asked this question in a previous thread, and I think Barry replied that he did the test you suggested and found differences between the burned-in cable and the fresh one.