Let's talk tonearms.

[McIntosh]

Which arms are you using and why.

I have never compared arms. Always just used the Origin Live modded RB250.

What are the differences I would hear if I went with a high end arm?

What do you look for when you select a new arm?

[Tony Plachy]

I am using a VPI JMW Memorial 12.5 tonearm. I am using it becasue it came stuck on (good and proper) to the VPI TNT-HR that I bought. :D I love it, the VTA adjustment on the arm is reason enough to buy just for that feature, the other things like it tracks perfectly and sounds great are just a bonus. :righton:

[McIntosh]

Forgot to add.

I am thinking about my next upgrade.

I currently have a Clearaudio Solution. But really want a Teres.

Would I get more bang from my buck upgrading to a better arm like a Schroeder along with the upgrade to the Master Solution than I would getting a Teres and using a regular OL RB250?

Cost would be about the same either way.

[proufo]

What do you look for when you select a new arm?
In my case, my Teres DIY is designed to be an energy sink so an arm that transmits the stray cartridge energy to the TT body is in order.

I'm looking at the two top Regas.

[Vinyl-Addict]

Forgot to add.

I am thinking about my next upgrade.

I currently have a Clearaudio Solution. But really want a Teres.

Would I get more bang from my buck upgrading to a better arm like a Schroeder along with the upgrade to the Master Solution than I would getting a Teres and using a regular OL RB250?

Cost would be about the same either way.

I'm guessing the appearance of the turntable is of primary importance so Teres is definitely a "looker". Have you considered Basis? I think Basis makes very nice tables, both athsetically and sonically.
Forget about a Schroeder tonearm unless you have a lot of patience. He is pretty much always a year behind in backorders. Take a look at the Graham Phantom if you want something that performs very well in all departments.:)

[TONEPUB]

I agree with Frank..

I like Graham and SME because they are very easy to set up and get repeatable results. Though I don't own a Graham anymore, I was very
happy with my 2.2. The new phantom is more revealing and if you have the hankering to have multiple cartridges the Graham makes that a lot easier than the SME.

While it might not conform to your asthetic parameters, Now that I've lived with it for about 6 months, I'm very impressed with the Rega P9 (with Franks Groovetracer counterweight...).

It offers an awful good look into what you get with the megabucks tables,
and you can set it up in about 10 minutes.

Just another thought.

Because the Teres is essentially a "botique" item, you are always going to pay more for what you get, because they don't build anything in any kind of quantity like Rega, SME, Graham or the majors.

Also, if at all possible, I would try and get some kind of demo, because at that price the cost of buyers remorse is high. And I would make that suggestion if you wanted a Rega, SME, Linn or anything else.

All of the really high end tables like that have their own sound. The Teres stuff is kind of warm to begin with and you have a pretty warm system going with the Mac electronics. Matching a Teres with this setup (of course depending on the cartridge and cabling) will either be romantic bliss for you or it might be dark and muddy.

Once you commit to a table in that price point, it's like buying an exotic sports car, the value will drop 30-50% once you drive it off the lot. And those babies are a lot to ship!!

Good luck with the purchase!

[MikeyH]

If you're going with the top 'boutique' tables like the teres and clearaudio, you have a lot of leeway and 'tuning' ability in the setup. Also, it almost goes without saying that every setup is different enough to be unique.

However, what you lose is the sort of synergy you get from say the VPI, Linn, and Rega (as supplied) setups.

I had the chance to audition for a long time the Ittok, Ekos and Naim Aro at my local dealer - for about four hours, on my records. Even these similar arms on similar Sondek turntables, with same-production Troika cartridges, exhibited differences in musical presentation that you either liked or did not.

[AudiophilePhil]

What dictates the length of tonearm to be used?
Is it the size of turntable base?
Is there any advantage of using different sizes of tonearms?
For example, aside from the length, what's the sonic difference between SME 309, SME310 and SME312?

[AudiophilePhil]

What dictates the length of tonearm to be used?
Is it the size of turntable base?
Is there any advantage of using different sizes of tonearms?
For example, aside from the length, what's the sonic difference between SME 309, SME310 and SME312?

No one here can answer these? mmmmmm........

[proufo]

No one here can answer these? mmmmmm........Many can, but he/she will get in a lot of trouble.:D

[MikeyH]

What dictates the length of tonearm to be used?
Is it the size of turntable base?
Is there any advantage of using different sizes of tonearms?
For example, aside from the length, what's the sonic difference between SME 309, SME310 and SME312?

Nothing dictates a length, other than your own preference. The Clearaudio and Teres tables that were mentioned at the start don't actually have a 'size', they're more like free-mounted flywheels with as many arms and motors around them as you care for.

A pivoted tonearm can't be shorter than about seven inches, unless it only plays 7 inch 45 rpm records; arms of this tiny size can be seen on some of the newer 'best buy' turntables. Typically arms have centered around 9 inches effective (stylus to pivot) length. This keeps the size in proportion to a flat, twelve inch platter and a box of convenient domestic size. The Sondek / Thorens 150 / Thorens 160 size is about the smallest size possible with these measurements.

Ten or Twelve inch effective length arms need to be mounted further away from the turntable spindle, and so a larger box or arrangement is needed. The full size VPI HRX is of this configuration. Most of the Teres and Clearaudio systems I've seen have custom arm mounting or in the extreme separate mounting plates for arm, motor, and platter/bearing.

You get less tracking error with a correctly set up longer arm, and hence less distortion due to that error; the trade off is that you get more effective mass, all other things being equal, and different resonances in the arm tube. (think of bending a long stick as against a short one). VPI owners I know who have changed from the 9.5 to the 12.5 say it's important to them, and the longer arm is better.

I can't comment on the SMEs.

[chosenhandle]

I had a modded RB250 (techno arm) on my Teres and thought it was too "soft" sounding. Certainly wasn't a very detailed sounding. I went through a couple of cartridges trying to find the sound I wanted.

I upgraded to a Triplanar VII arm and saw great improvement across the board. Detail, accuracy, trackability etc. It is a much more expensive arm than the Technoarm, but it really made a big diiference in my system.

One I settled in on the Triplanar, over time I was able to upgrade the table to a Kuzma Reference and soon I will be upgrading my cartridge to a Airtight PC-1. Hopefully that will be the end of my upgrade-itis.

[TONEPUB]

Mikey is right on the money and the same applies to the SME arms with a couple of small exceptions. The 309 and the 312 have removable headshells, which compromises the stiffness of the arm a bit. I have a 309, a iv.Vi and a V, and in addition to the removable head shells, the iv.Vi and the V have better bearings, tighter tolerances and a bit better wiring as you go up the line, but otherwise all the comments on length apply.

[Gary]

....the same applies to the SME arms with a couple of small exceptions.

You reminded me that I have a Shure SME arm.... I think.... in storage. Hmmm....

[michael w]

What dictates the length of tonearm to be used?


Fashion.

:laugh:

[Beagle]

:laughup:

I still love my old Mission 774. It's stuck on an old JVC QL50 DD.

[MikeyH]

I still love my old Mission 774. It's stuck on an old JVC QL50 DD.

Very cool arm. I used one on my first Sondek, with Ortofon and ADC cartridges (this was when Linn still supplied the Grace as standard .. I knew I wanted something stronger than that).

[Mike in OR]

I am using an SME IV.Vi and it sounds great.

[serendipitydawg]

Rega RB300

Value for money (second hand rox $150 in today's money)

Look's cool, sounds cool

[visprashyana]

Nothing dictates a length, other than your own preference. The Clearaudio and Teres tables that were mentioned at the start don't actually have a 'size', they're more like free-mounted flywheels with as many arms and motors around them as you care for.

A pivoted tonearm can't be shorter than about seven inches, unless it only plays 7 inch 45 rpm records; arms of this tiny size can be seen on some of the newer 'best buy' turntables. Typically arms have centered around 9 inches effective (stylus to pivot) length. This keeps the size in proportion to a flat, twelve inch platter and a box of convenient domestic size. The Sondek / Thorens 150 / Thorens 160 size is about the smallest size possible with these measurements.

Ten or Twelve inch effective length arms need to be mounted further away from the turntable spindle, and so a larger box or arrangement is needed. The full size VPI HRX is of this configuration. Most of the Teres and Clearaudio systems I've seen have custom arm mounting or in the extreme separate mounting plates for arm, motor, and platter/bearing.

You get less tracking error with a correctly set up longer arm, and hence less distortion due to that error; the trade off is that you get more effective mass, all other things being equal, and different resonances in the arm tube. (think of bending a long stick as against a short one). VPI owners I know who have changed from the 9.5 to the 12.5 say it's important to them, and the longer arm is better.

I can't comment on the SMEs.

I know this is a common understanding amongst the audiophile crowd, but the longer the tonearm, the greater the error and distortion. Yes, on paper using trig and geometry, this would appear to be true, but that does not take into account the mechanics of the tonearm. As the length of the tonearm increases, so does the pressure on the tonearm. It has been shown that this "twisting" pressure on the longer (12 inch) tonearm actually creates more tracking errors because it is very difficult to make the 12 inch version as stiff as the 9 inch version. The longer tonearms were popular a while ago and then the market did shift almost exclusively to 9 inch versions. The only reason you would use a 12 inch arm is that you were playing lacquers.

[LeeS]

I know this is a common understanding amongst the audiophile crowd, but the longer the tonearm, the greater the error and distortion.

Really?

If so, suddenly the JMW9 is not looking so bad. :winkgrin:

What if they solved the twisting problem, then the geometry would be better and no side effects...?

[visprashyana]

The problem is that you can't easily solve the pressure on the tonearm without creating a heavier tonearm or changing to a much more expensive metal. The difference in force between the 9 and the 12 is great. In regards to the JMW9, I would easily exchange it for a SME IV or 309 and you would enjoy the differences.

[AudiophilePhil]

Other Nice Tonearms:

Roksan Artemiz
Wilson Benesch a.c.t 2.0

[Tony Plachy]

I know this is a common understanding amongst the audiophile crowd, but the longer the tonearm, the greater the error and distortion. Yes, on paper using trig and geometry, this would appear to be true, but that does not take into account the mechanics of the tonearm. As the length of the tonearm increases, so does the pressure on the tonearm. It has been shown that this "twisting" pressure on the longer (12 inch) tonearm actually creates more tracking errors because it is very difficult to make the 12 inch version as stiff as the 9 inch version. The longer tonearms were popular a while ago and then the market did shift almost exclusively to 9 inch versions. The only reason you would use a 12 inch arm is that you were playing lacquers.

visprashyana, I cannot understand what you mean here because I think you are using terms that have very specific meaning is physics and mechanics in a way that is different than that very specific meaning. There is no pressure on the tonearm. Gravity acts on each part of the tonearm, but we call that a force and tone arm behaves mechanically as if the force is acting on its center mass. You refer to a "twisting" pressure which again is very hard to understand. Twisting is normally generated by applying a torque (a rotational force) to a body. In what plane do you think this twisting is occurring? Do have an article that you can post a link to that might have diagrams and perhaps an equation or two in it?

[HiFi Guy 008]

The criticism here of all 12 inch tonearms comes as quite as a surprise to me.

But as I have yet to hear a 12 inch tonearm, I wont disagree.

I have been told (by persons who have direct experience listening and comparing) that the SME 3012, a vintage 12 inch tonearm, easily outperforms any Rega/Origin Live on certain turntables. And that the reason for this was actually due to reduced tracking error (as opposed to vsprashyana's assertion of increased tracking error due to twisting.)

It's very interesting - but those 3012 tonearms are going for over $1000.00 - in flawed - sometimes incomplete - condition. Perhaps this is due to "vintage appeal" - but I'm doubtful.
:)