PDA

View Full Version : Could I use this Yamaha A-1020 Int. Amp to power some AR-3a speakers?


mhjmhj
06-25-2007, 08:53 AM
Hi!

I'm looking to get an amp to power some vintage Acoustic Research AR-3a speakers in a second zone (another room from my receiver). My receiver has multi-room capability.

This is the amp I'm looking at:
http://www.oaktreeent.com/Stereo_Amps_and_Pre-Amps.htm
(second from the top - Yamaha A-1020)

The AR-3a's are reportedly power hungry and 4-ohms. If you look in the following image, it has a description of all the impedance capabilities of the amp (which confused me):
http://www.oaktreeent.com/web_photos/Stereo_Amps_Pre/Yamaha_A-1020_Stereo_Amplifier_rear_close-up_collage.jpg

I also have a set of small (cheap) outdoor speakers rated at 4-ohm, wich I could connect to this amp.

Thank you!!

dinchart
06-25-2007, 09:04 AM
You'll have more than enough power. All specs for the 3a can be found here:

http://www.arsenal.net/speakers/ar/classic/ar-3a/ar3a.htm

I hope the seller includes a manual, considering the price.

mhjmhj
06-25-2007, 09:17 AM
You'll have more than enough power. All specs for the 3a can be found here:

http://www.arsenal.net/speakers/ar/classic/ar-3a/ar3a.htm

I hope the seller includes a manual, considering the price.

Actually, the one I'm looking at is on eBay for a good deal less than the one I'm showing for reference. ;) And it does come with a manual.

The part I'm confused about is the impedance (impedence confuses me to begin with). Can the Yamaha handle to 4-ohm impedance of the AR-3As? I think the AR-3As fried a previous (cheaper) receiver I had. Now, I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-81TXV, which can handle 8-ohm speakers, so the AR-3As are sitting dormant until I get something that can handle them. I don't want to fry my receiver and I don't want to fry an amp that I'm buying specifically to power the AR-3As.

Thanks!

LesPaul666
06-25-2007, 09:26 AM
I used to have that Yamaha A-1020 integrated. It was pretty powerful from what I can remember. It sounded pretty darn good, as well.:agree:

dinchart
06-25-2007, 09:39 AM
Actually, the one I'm looking at is on eBay for a good deal less than the one I'm showing for reference. ;) And it does come with a manual.

The part I'm confused about is the impedance (impedence confuses me to begin with). Can the Yamaha handle to 4-ohm impedance of the AR-3As? I think the AR-3As fried a previous (cheaper) receiver I had. Now, I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-81TXV, which can handle 8-ohm speakers, so the AR-3As are sitting dormant until I get something that can handle them. I don't want to fry my receiver and I don't want to fry an amp that I'm buying specifically to power the AR-3As.

Thanks!


According to the published specs, the Yamaha should be more than adequate. BTW, speakers should not be able to "fry" a properly designed amp.
Usually, it's the other way around -- an amp with insufficient headroom clips & damages the speakers.

I don't have link handy, but IIRC there used to be a pretty good artlcle explaining speaker impedance on the Polk speaker website.

mhjmhj
06-25-2007, 09:48 AM
Cool, thanks!

the receiver I had was a Panasonic HA-something. Pretty cheapo, especially to the standards that those who frequent this site have. Not a "properly-designed" amp, I don't think. One of the front speaker outs stopped working, and some feedback I got on this site (and/or AudioReview forums) led me to believe it could have been a result of powering the AR-3As, (sometimes at high volumes).

I'll check out that Polk site. I've read some of the impedance discussion on the Crutchfield site.

Many thanks again!

BradOlson
06-25-2007, 10:03 AM
BTW, when I was in my upgrading speakers phase, I ended up permanently overloading my first RCA HT receiver, but with my current receiver, I have plenty of power for them and I haven't overloaded yet.

mhjmhj
06-25-2007, 10:15 AM
@ those levels either the M/R (the most likely candidate) or tweeter will give up the ghost, & replacement drivers haven`t been available for some time.

Not quite sure what that means (kind of a noob here), but I'll be careful!

btw, this forum is so much better than AudioReview.

mhjmhj
06-25-2007, 11:00 AM
They weren`t designed to play @ prohibitively hi volume levels & will be damaged @ those levels.


Got it. If my brain starts rattling or my wife starts swinging at me, I'll turn it down.;)

Kent Teffeteller
06-25-2007, 11:09 AM
Hi,

Important note regarding your prospective Yammie! The nominal impedance on your AR 3a speakers is 4 Ohms. They can dip as low as 2 Ohms on certain frequencies. Don't connect a second pair of speakers to this amplifier and play them at the same time. Also, be careful with that volume control. AR 3a tweeters fry easily. The AR 3 series are mucho inefficient. Best amplifiers for the AR 3a are amps which have 150 WPC ratings and can drive 2 ohm loads safely all day.

mhjmhj
06-25-2007, 01:17 PM
Well, I won the auction for the Yamaha A-1020.

If I keep the bass and trebel controls in the middle, how would you define "prohibitively hi volume levels"?

pbda
06-25-2007, 01:25 PM
porziob knows of what he speaks. At the moment I'm driving my 3as with a Marantz 2600 receiver (400 wpc into 4 ohms), and they seem pretty happy with that. However I spent a year driving them with a Yamaha CR-2040 (120 wpc) without a problem. The only time that clipping reared its ugly head was during particularly loud organ music (I'm remembering Saint-Saens' 3rd symphony). My guess is that the amp you've chosen should be fine for the 3as.

mhjmhj
06-25-2007, 01:43 PM
Thank you all. I'm a happy guy. I'll be even happier when I get it all hooked up - I'll be sure not to turn it up to 11. ;)

mhjmhj
06-25-2007, 01:48 PM
Also, just to clarify, I should not hook up and power another set of 4-ohm low power outdoor speakers with this amp, even though it has 3 speaker outs? Is that right?

Joe Nino-Hernes
06-25-2007, 03:02 PM
All of the reports of blown tweeters in AR-3a's are with OLD SS amps! I have been using no less than 200 watts per channel with my AR-3's and 3a's for years, and have yet to blow a tweeter. You need clean power. I am using Channel Islands D200 monoblocks right now. They are 350 watts into 4 ohms. I listen fairly loud as well.

I have yet to meet a receiver (or integrated) that can properly power vintage AR speakers. With the correct power, you can rock out with out fear of blowing tweeters.

Joe Nino-Hernes
06-25-2007, 09:08 PM
Joe, not trying to be contentious, I`m curious if you ever checked your SPLs w/ a meter? To one person 85db peaks may be loud whereas another listening @ 120 db peaks feels it`s not loud enough.

I meter my system from time to time, and the loudest I ever had it was around 98dB (A weighted). I do mixing and mastering around 90dB. My room mates and I throw parties quite often, and we will have the system up around 95dB for a song or two, then its back down to around 85-90.

Taurus
06-26-2007, 11:42 AM
Cool, thanks!

the receiver I had was a Panasonic HA-something. Pretty cheapo, especially to the standards that those who frequent this site have. Not a "properly-designed" amp, I don't think. One of the front speaker outs stopped working, and some feedback I got on this site (and/or AudioReview forums) led me to believe it could have been a result of powering the AR-3As, (sometimes at high volumes).As a mid-fi guy :) I feel I have to say something here.

IMO as far as the receiver burning out a channel, it's not that the Panasonic was improperly designed, it's that it was trying to operate a speaker system it was never designed to operate (to their full potential anyway) in the first place.

Speakers such as these ARs demand a lot of current i.e. "amperage" to sound their best and providing large amounts of current requires:

1) a large power supply transformer

2) large power filtering capacitors (those can-like components seen through the top grill, usually located near the transformer)

3) heavily-built power output transistors and a large heatsink that allows them to get rid of the heat they generate.

These items are THE most costly parts and systems, particularly the power supply section, in a receiver.* To keep the receiver affordable i.e the 200 to $500 price point region that Panasonic deals in, the manufacturer simply cannot include such things AND maintain a competitive price. And if those ARs were still being sold new, Panasonic would not expect the buyers of such a speaker at its price point to use one of their receivers to power them: that would be like using a $90 tire on a Mercedes SL V8-powered coupe when in reality, that tire was actually designed to be used with a 4-cylinder Toyota Celica GT.

Then you have to add in the AR's very low efficiency (mostly due to its acoustic-suspension design which enables it to produce very extended bass frequencies for its size) and you've got one heck of a load to deal with!

Recently I had a chance to buy some older Infinitys (http://www.infinity-classics.de/infinity/models/Reference-series-1+b-2-10+A+B-1981-86/Reference-Standard-4/body_rs_4.html) with similar low impedance issues (though their sound is much different than the ARs, which I find to be too laid back and veiled for my taste), but I don't own an amp capable of driving them properly without frying its own output transistors, so I had to pass on them.

Lastly, with my own Technics SA-DA8 receiver which is a Panasonic product, a couple years ago just for the heck of it, I connected in parallel my Boston Acoustics CR9 bookshelfs (8" ported woofer) and a pair of Infinity bookshelfs (6.5" ported woofer). The BA's impedance of 8 ohms and the Infinity's 6 ohm impedance together were much lower than was stated as a safe load in the receiver's manual but despite that - most probably that warning was one of those cover-your-arse legal things - for several minutes I operated this $350 receiver at 75% of full volume (much louder than I ever listen) AND without its low-impedance mode activated.......and experienced no problems, mechanically or sonically-speaking though excessive heat build up over time might have become a problem but I was too chicken to find that out! :D Anyhoo....but then again these speakers both had an SPL rating of 91dB, much higher than most 70s-era acoustic suspension speakers. I did the same test with my old Pioneer SX-6 bought new in 1983 with the same result.

So the synergy issue that is mentioned on audio forums is definitely at work here i.e. the right amp for "X" speakers makes for better sound.


* transformers use a lot of iron and copper wire. Iron and in particular copper, are becoming very expensive these days and manufacturers have to pass on their cost to us. This is also the reason the theft of such metals is on the rise (even to the point of stealing wire from street lamps!)

mhjmhj
06-26-2007, 12:19 PM
"Mid-fi guy" - I like it. I'm an aspiring mid-fi guy. When I blew the old Panasonic, I was a low-fi guy. Operator error probably has everything to do with why it broke. I was also running all of my speakers at that time through a Niles SSVC-4 speaker selector (which I just learned today has an impedance magnification setting that must be selected to correspond with the number of pairs of speakers you are running - you can bet I'm going to check what I have that set at as soon as I get home tonight). These stereos can be tricky things!

Anyway, great reply, Taurus. So, do you think that Yamaha A-1020 will be OK if it is dedicated to the AR-3As? Also, what is an "SPL rating"?


And thanks for chiming in too Joe! I was hoping the resident AR guru would see this thread.

mhjmhj
06-26-2007, 01:29 PM
Yeah, I should be fine. I have a wife and two young kids these days, so I've mellowed out some. ;)

but what does SPL signify?

Taurus
06-26-2007, 04:11 PM
mhjmhj: I agree with the other members: the Yamaha should do fine with the ARs. That 6 ohm minimum warning is probably just the Yamaha engineers being conservative (my receiver says the same thing).

Niles speaker selectors: oh man watch out for those! When I use to sell audio gear which included Niles switchers, we regularly had people calling us up after buying them saying their receiver went into its protection mode when using those boxes. We finally set one up ourselves to see what the fuss was about and yep, they were picky about how they were set up!

Extra info for SPL, which is also referred to as the "sensitivity" of a speaker system. IIRC for every 3dB decrease in SPL, you'll need approximately twice as much power to reach the same volume level.

Here's some examples of different speakers that show how different efficiency ratings affect their operation:

Klipsch Cornwall III (http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/cornwall-iii.aspx): 102db. A very large speaker which uses a ported 15" woofer along with horns for the midrange and high frequencies. Because of their extremely high efficiency a lot of people use these with tubed amplifiers, most of which seem to top out at around 35-50 watts per channel.

NHT Classic Four (http://www.nhthifi.com/products/four.html): 86dB. Uses a 10" ported woofer but despite using a much smaller enclosure it can reach down to 27Hz* vs. the Cornwall's rating of 34Hz (still very low!).....but also requires a much more powerful amp to do so. I'm considering this model for a 2.0 music-only system.

FYI: a pair of original Baby Advents I owned for 14 years had the same rating and Stereo Review reported that despite their small 6.5" woofer they had usable bass all the way down to 45Hz, which I could verify. But they definitely required me to turn up my receiver's volume compared to the Bostons (91dB) that eventually replaced them. The Bostons can reach 42Hz but do so with a much larger enclosure. Lots of competing issues a speaker engineer has to juggle!

A middle of the road speaker :) Infinity Beta 50 (http://infinitysystems.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=BETA50BK&cat=BFS&ser=BET&Language=ENG&Region=USA&Country=US): 91dB. This is a very common SPL rating. With its ported dual 8" drivers this speaker makes it down to 35Hz, its enclosure size is acceptable to many people and doesn't require an exceptionally powerful or well-built amp to generate high volume levels.

* its manual states this along with a +/- 3db rating, just like the Cornwall i.e. their specs are accurately comparable

mhjmhj
06-27-2007, 09:56 AM
My dad has those Klipsch Cornwall IIIs. I remember he had this recording of the 1812 Overture with real cannons being fired off (at least I think it was the 1812 Overture). Anyway, when those cannons went off, while listening at high volume, it was *alarming* to say the least.


I'll probably start another thread about that speaker selector at some point. I've never had any issues with it and it seems like a decent quality product to me. I looked at mine last night and it is not the same model I said I have earlier - but an earlier model. It does not have an impedance modification setting, but has some sort of impedance protection switch that I flipped to "on".

Taurus
06-27-2007, 03:16 PM
I ddin't mean to imply Niles was a bad brand - I meant to say their speaker switchers have varying ways of adding the speakers' impedances together. So depending on the they're configured and/or if the protection system is turned on, some amps will protest & some won't have any problems at all.