McIntosh Labs sells a dvd-audio player.....so what?

[Taurus]

At least this seems what they think of their hi-res player. Dvd-audio capability is scarcely mentioned--it's like they are describing a mundane feature like the cabinet finish or style of output jacks. Go here to see what I mean (you'll have to click on "dvd player" in the drop-down box):

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/

I finally saw & heard this player a few days ago (looks like it uses Panasonic's own dvd-a player fluorescent display but, thank goodness, NOT Panasonic's lousy remote control). Salesman could have cared less.

I've never heard of anyone saying they own this component; is there anyone here even thinking about buying one?

[T]

[Tullman]

So..... How did it sound? How was the picture?

[Taurus]

Uh oh, I was afraid somebody would ask about that! :) I was only able to listen for 15 minutes. And I wasn't familiar with the speakers either (Nautilus Signature 800's). With this in mind, what I heard from Linda Ronstadt's What's New dvd-audio sounded very clean and detailed. "Smooth" is another good adjective for this disc/system. No sonic irregularities I could really put my finger on (remember: 15 minutes..........). And for a system price of $32,000 there should be none!

Didn't get to check out the video capabilities, sorry.

Multichannel sound check? Couldn't, as this was a stereo-only demo rig.

Despite my irritation at McIntosh's seemingly blase' attitude toward its dvd-a player, I'm glad they are into the dvd-audio format.

But what really worries me is the lack of affordable decent dvd-a players, around the $400-$800 range. There are lots of those ultralightweight players from Panasonic, Pioneer, etc. and now we're getting some upper-crust players. But what happened to the middle for us moderate types? (Just like motorcycles: if you don't like the hyper crotch rockets or the piggy cruiser bikes, you're up the brown creek. I.e. anybody remember "standard" bikes? The last one I saw was made by Yamaha 5 years ago, called a "SECA II". Just a memory now-damn!).

[T]

[Ed Bishop]

Taurus, there are affordable DVD-A players. In fact, one--the Pioneer DV45-A--plays both SACD and DVD-A formats, in addition to the usual redbook CD, CD-Rs, MP3, DVD video, etc. It retails for $400-500, which is mighty affordable for that kind of versatility. And what does *lightweight* mean? Absolutely irrelevant pertaining to sound quality. I have an old Yamaha CD player that's ancient by today's standards, but it can just about match anything costing many hundreds more. And it plays CD-R's without even being told, before such things were commonplace! And light as a feather....

ED:cool:

[Michael St. Clair]

Remember the McIntosh 7020 CD/Laserdisc transport? It was basically a Pioneer CLD-97 laserdisc player with tweaked analog output.

This player could easily be a Panasonic RP82 with balanced outputs added and a sturdier, heavier chassis. The weight on 'beefier' DVD players seems to never come from the actual drive mechanism.

disclaimer: I'm not familiar with the player and am making some partially-informed speculation. I'm sure they've made some additional upgrades but still suspect this is basically a Panasonic DVD-A/V player.

[Pinknik]

It almost seems like McIntosh is saying that this player can play DVD-A's much like any DVD video player can. It doesn't mention any multi-channel or bass management functions. My SONY can PLAY DVD-A's, but it isn't a DVD-A player.

[Michael St. Clair]

It does 24/192, so it is a DVD-A player for sure. Almost certainly one of a half-dozen or more non-Panasonic players on the market using a an RP82-ish chipset.

For bass management you need an ICBM or equivalent (or five full-range speakers and a sub, then there is nothing to manage). Supposedly low and mid-end players are coming out with full bass management during Q1 and Q2, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Many people believe that the RP82 does bass management for DVD-A, but that is a misconception. Some RP82 owners even think their player is doing DVD-A bass management.

[JohnG]

At this point I still think your fine with a Panasonic or Toshiba dvda player. No need for mega-bucks dvda players that are not really that much an improvement (except as a status symbol).



JohnG

[-=Rudy=-]

Originally posted by Ed Bishop
Taurus, there are affordable DVD-A players. In fact, one--the Pioneer DV45-A--plays both SACD and DVD-A formats, in addition to the usual redbook CD, CD-Rs, MP3, DVD video, etc. It retails for $400-500, which is mighty affordable for that kind of versatility. And

OK, NOW we're talking! Keeewl! :D If they would just put this into a 300-disc changer, I'd *really* be pumped! :D CDs, DVDs, etc. are all the same sized discs...there's no real reason for me to have separate players for everything, nor the room.

[-=Rudy=-]

Oops...can't find this DV45-A on Pioneer's website. Shucks.

[lv70smusic]

Rudy:

Go to the US Pioneer Electronics site, search for dvd-a player, and then look at the third page of results.

Or, if this link works, try this:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/CDA/Search/SearchResults/1,1408,,00.html?currentPage=3&searchText=dvd%2Da+player&searchCategories=300000002&display_cat_id=1

Originally posted by Rudy@A&MCorner
Oops...can't find this DV45-A on Pioneer's website. Shucks.

[dwmann]

Despite my irritation at McIntosh's seemingly blase' attitude toward its dvd-a player, I'm glad they are into the dvd-audio format.

You have to understand the Mac philosophy. To Mac, this probably ISN'T a "DVD-A" player - it's a DVD/CD/VCD player that has DVD-A capability. If they couldn't add DVD-A capability to a standard DVD/CD/VCD player, they would not be producing a DVD-A player AT ALL. Mac does not usually jump on new technologies until they have been embraced by the marketplace AND have matured somewhat. It took them a while just to put out a DVD player, and I would expect that until DVD-A becomes a well-established format that Mac will continue to think of this unit as a DVD/CD/VCD player that can play DVD-As also.

[Michael St. Clair]

FYI, there's a new Panasonic-based Yamaha universal player (DVD-S2300, I think) for $1000 MSRP. It does bass management for DVD-A and SACD.

McIntosh could have disabled DVD-A capability in the chipset if they wanted to; maybe they should have if they don't want people thinking that this is a 'reference' DVD-A player.

[-=Rudy=-]

Originally posted by lv70smusic
Go to the US Pioneer Electronics site, search for dvd-a player, and then look at the third page of results.

Dagnabbit--totally overlooked the Elite series again. (Not too intuitive when menu-surfing Pioneer's site.)

Got your link--I found it, I dig it, I want it! :D Can't get one right now, but I see many on eBay selling right around $400. (Most are around $425 after shipping...some just pad it more than others.) I need a better DVD player than my older models. The DVD-A and SACD are just bonuses for me here. :)

[Michael St. Clair]

Rudy,

If you are buying a new DVD player (for picture quality...not for SACD/DVDA) and have an HDTV, I would stick to the players that use the Panasonic chipset.

Also, the Pioneer players have the chroma bug.

[SamS]

Originally posted by Michael St. Clair

This player could easily be a Panasonic RP82 with balanced outputs added and a sturdier, heavier chassis. The weight on 'beefier' DVD players seems to never come from the actual drive mechanism.

disclaimer: I'm not familiar with the player and am making some partially-informed speculation. I'm sure they've made some additional upgrades but still suspect this is basically a Panasonic DVD-A/V player.

I disagree with you here. Just because the front panel LCD and on-screen menu's come from Panasonic doesn't mean it's a dressed-up $220 unit.

McIntosh takes ALL the guts out of a Panasonic and replaces them with high-quality video boards, audio circuitry and power stages. Believe me, this thing is no closer to a Panasonic when they are through than it is to a $200 Sony.

This is truely a high-end DVD-A player with refined DACs and a great picture quality to boot. A solid glass front panel and fiber-optic backlit graphics add a great cosmetic touch IMO.

[Michael St. Clair]

McIntosh takes ALL the guts out of a Panasonic and replaces them with high-quality video boards, audio circuitry and power stages. Believe me, this thing is no closer to a Panasonic when they are through than it is to a $200 Sony.

Then they took a completely different approach than the one they took when they made the laserdisc player. I've talked to 2 different repair techs that had checked out the Mand they both said that was 99.7% the same as the Pioneer CLD-97, down to the revision numbers and fabrication plant info on the circuit boards. Tweaks had been made to the analog output only, which seems strange when the player was being touted as a 'transport'.

McIntosh takes ALL the guts out of a Panasonic and replaces them with high-quality video boards, audio circuitry and power stages.

Denon and Yamaha have players based on the same chipset. You don't gut a Panasonic, you buy the OEM chipset and build your own player. They likely provide reference designs for boardsets. But DVD video quality is often not improved noticeably by improved build quality with the same chipset.

Believe me, this thing is no closer to a Panasonic when they are through than it is to a $200 Sony.

That is simply not true if they are selling it as a DVD-V player (they sure aren't touting DVD-A). The MPEG decoder, video DACs, and deinterlacer are critical and are nothing like what you will find in a Sony. Panasonic hit the first progressive-scan homerun with this combo, and a $200 Panasonic is tied for the highest-rated player for picture quality. If you are going to use something as a foundation, Panasonic's current design is the one to choose! But that foundation has a huge, not tiny, amount to do with the picture you get on the screen. You imply that they could have used a Sony chipset and gotten similar results. Not going to happen.

This is truely a high-end DVD-A player with refined DACs and a great picture quality to boot.

Why aren't they touting it as a DVD-A player?

The same DACs are used in the Yamaha. It also has high-res bass management and SACD.

I'm not saying this isn't an excellent player. It might be, by a hair margin, the best DVD player on the market.

[SamS]

You imply that they could have used a Sony chipset and gotten similar results. Not going to happen.

No, that's not what I implied. A more accurate description would be :if you took off the top cover of a $200 Panasonic and compared it to the innards of the Mac, the overall parts and design characteristics of the Panny would be closer to a $200 Sony than the McIntosh end result.

I'm an owner of the Panasonic RP91K (the closest birthing point of the Mac) as well as the Panasonic XP50 model. I realize the potential of both of these players especially at their price points.

Why aren't they touting it as a DVD-A player?

Who says they aren't?

The same DACs are used in the Yamaha. It also has high-res bass management and SACD.

I don't think so. The Mac has Burr Brown DACs.

Denon and Yamaha have players based on the same chipset. You don't gut a Panasonic, you buy the OEM chipset and build your own player. They likely provide reference designs for boardsets.

When you're a small company like McIntosh, you usually just buy the player and gut it. McIntosh wouldn't need enought OEM chipsets to get them as a bulk quantity deal a la Denon.

[Michael St. Clair]

When you're a small company like McIntosh, you usually just buy the player and gut it.

They pull and reuse surface-mount ICs? I prefer my products to not be made of abused components. ;) And such labor.

I doubt this.

Panasonic XP50 model

The XP50 is a little soft, you might want to look at the RP82. Not sure what they did with the XP50.

Who says they aren't?

Me and a couple of other people in this thread. If the website is representative of how they are marketing this player, they are not touting it as a DVD-A player. At least not effectively!


I don't think so. The Mac has Burr Brown DACs.

Um, yeah, I know that. So does the Yammy.

[SamS]

They pull and reuse surface-mount ICs? I prefer my products to not be made of abused components. And such labor.

I doubt this.

OK, you can ask them if you'd like. Call Chuck Hinton, McIntosh Labs Product Specialist (607) 723-3512.


Um, yeah, I know that. So does the Yammy.

The Yamaha website does not state this, nor a recent review in Sound & Vision. It could very well have BB DACs, care to provide a link?

[Michael St. Clair]

OK, you can ask them if you'd like. Call Chuck Hinton, McIntosh Labs Product Specialist (607) 723-3512.

I'll take your word for it and continue to think it is absurd. :)

The Yamaha website does not state this, nor a recent review in Sound & Vision. It could very well have BB DACs, care to provide a link?

I've heard for months on various A/V sites and boards that the 2300 uses BB DACs.

I'm surprised Yamaha's site doesn't say this. Maybe I have heard wrong.

I believe these asian sites are describing Analog Devices DSD DACs and Burr-Brown PCM DAC's.

http://www.avupdate.com/news/today1/22_11_02_body.htm
http://www.21hifi.com/newshifi/20021105/05.htm

Yamaha has used 24/192 Burr-Brown DAC's in other players as affordable as the $399 DVD-C920. http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/compare/dvd_comp.htm

I'll call a friend in the morning who can likely tell me the scoop.

[-=Rudy=-]

Originally posted by Michael St. Clair
If you are buying a new DVD player (for picture quality...not for SACD/DVDA) and have an HDTV, I would stick to the players that use the Panasonic chipset.

Also, the Pioneer players have the chroma bug.

My only criteria is that the player can play *everything*. Whatever the chroma bug is, I probably won't even notice it. Even when I can afford an HDTV a few years from now. :) It does look like I'll have to hang onto the laserdisc players, too.

[Michael St. Clair]

Rudy,

I'm hanging onto LD. Hell, I have 4 players!

If you don't care about HD for the next few years (and don't want to buy a McIntosh player that costs more than my HDTV) I would probably be looking hard at the Pioneer...the latest model (47ai) supposedly doesn't have to convert DSD to PCM for bass management.

The best of both worlds (DVD picture quality and full DVD-A/SACD functionality) is the Yamaha but it's going to cost about twice as much.

[SamS]

I'll take your word for it and continue to think it is absurd.

I appreciate you taking my word for it, but maybe I should offer you more details so you'll take my word with some validity. Here goes: I've been to the McIntosh factory where they make MVP851's. You can go too! They have tours every week at the Binghampton, NY HQ. They'll tell you they start this player as a Panny. Please realize that MVP851's are hand-built players. They only make a few each week, and the care and detail that go into each is extraordinary.


I'll call a friend in the morning who can likely tell me the scoop.
I'll take your word for it. :)

[Michael St. Clair]

Sam,

They aren't using the PCBs, just the ICs?

I still don't know anything about the Yamaha. I know that some of the Analog Devices stuff lately plays on the same field as Burr-Brown. Crystal, on the other hand...