Considering a Phono Pre-Amp for my Vintage Pioneer Receiver

[gener8tr]

I have a beautiful 1976 Pioneer SX-1050 receiver that I will keep and use until my dying day, so need need to try and persuade me otherwise :)

Okay, that said, the one area of fault with these old Pioneer beasts was the phono section. Records play nice and clear, but the volume level is less than 1/2 of that of the tuner or aux input device such as CD, Mini Disc, etc.

There is NOT a problem with receiver, trust me. Those of you familiar with these old Pioneers probably know the volume from the phono is a weak-point. Well, I can't take it any longer. When I spin an Iron Maiden LP I can't get the sound loud enough to disturb someone in the next room let alone next door. If I play a CD at the same volume setting the cops are on their way. :D

So, I am very much considering investing in a phono pre-amp. However, I really don't want to spend $500.00 for a unit like the one I looked at a few days ago. Can you guys provide me with some insight, experiences, recommendations and price ranges? Your help is appreciated! :righton:

EDIT... Just so you know, there is NOT a problem with my turntable, either. Trust me, the phono section in the receiver is fine, just not NEARLY loud enough for my liking.

[LesPaul666]

Musical Fidelity, Creek, NAD, Parasound etc. among others make budget phono preamps that sound quite good. I use one by Audio Alchemy called the Vac-In-The-Box, which is a great unit, and sadly not being made anymore(out of business...possibly flea-bay may have one). There are quite a few options for $500.00 or less.

The reason you're experiencing this problem could very well be that the phono stage in the receiver can accept a very high output from a hot cartridge, and you may be using one that is of a lower output, hence the volume difference between sources.

[gener8tr]

The reason you're experiencing this problem could very well be that the phono stage in the receiver can accept a very high output from a hot cartridge, and you may be using one that is of a lower output, hence the volume difference between sources.


I should have listened to you 8 months ago, Marc!

I pulled the Audio Technica cart from the Yamaha PX2 and installed my Shure V-15 IV that was on my Sansui rig, and everything now works perfect!

I've went crazy this past year wondering why I wasn't getting the sound I wanted from this system. The Pioneer SX-1050 and Yamaha PX2 are very good pieces of vintage equipment, but I was nearing the point of giving up. Now I am the happiest dude around!

Lesson learned. If anyone else has a problem with low volume level from an older amp / turntable combo, check you cart first!

[OcdMan]

Which Audio-Technica cartridge was that? Just curious. Thanks.

[gener8tr]

Which Audio-Technica cartridge was that? Just curious. Thanks.

AT-12S

This cart employs a Shibata stylus and was designed for use in a quad system. I sure it's a very good cart in the proper system... just not mine.

[OcdMan]

Thanks. It's probably the "a" variant of the AT-12S. The AT-12Sa has an output of 2.7mV as opposed to the 4.0mV of the Shure V15-IV. That's great you had that Shure on hand. Glad it's working out for you.

[gener8tr]

Thanks. It's probably the "a" variant of the AT-12S. The AT-12Sa has an output of 2.7mV as opposed to the 4.0mV of the Shure V15-IV. That's great you had that Shure on hand. Glad it's working out for you.

Thanks, my friend, I cannot tell you how happy I was when I heard volume for the first time from my Yamaha PX-2. I promise the neighbors were not happy :)

I stole the Shure from my Sansui table, and replaced it with a Grado Black. Let me tell you, for $40.00 I got one heck-of-a good cart. It's not on par with the Shure, and certainly not as forgiving (crackles and pops are more evident), but for 1/8 of the price of the V-15 I don't mind doing a little better job of cleaning my vinyl before playing on the Sansui with Grado.

[David Powell]

I'm very happy with the Parasound Zphono that I just purchased. It lists for $150 and includes both polarity (to reduce hum) and mm/mc cartridge switching. Gain is 47k ohms for mm and 100 for mc.

[robertash]

If your handy, you can build a Bugle for $80 - it'll match any phono stage listing at around $500. Just use a combo of OPA2134 in U1 and U2, and a OPA2604 in the U3 output stage - magic.

Robert Mills

[blakep]

This thread illustrates just how important matching the output of the cartridge to the gain provided by the phono preamp is. There are probably many vinylphiles running systems which are mismatched with resulting very poor sound quality.

From my experience, the KAB gain calculator is pretty much dead on and will allow one to really optimize their setup. You should be with 1-2 db. of the gain stipulated by the KAB calculator when you insert your cartridges output. Get 3-4 db (or more) either side of what you should have in terms of gain and you won't be hearing what your system is capable of.

Too little gain and the sound will be muffled and anemic like a blanket has bee thrown over the speakers and too much gain will put you into overload, resulting in harsh, strident sound, possibly even distorted sound. No amount of fiddling with other things can compensate for mismatched gain. Get it wrong and vinyl is not worth doing. It won't matter how expensive or how good your phono stage or cartridge are.


http://www.kabusa.com/pregain.htm

[ulfsn]

Try this!:wave: It`s cheap,and extremly good bang for buck.
Densen DP 01(MC) or 02(MM).Sounds almost like tubes,probably becauce the signal is transfuced by light,and not by wires

Rune:righton:

[tommy-thewho]

Those old Pioneer receivers didn't have a setting for MM/MC so you just need to use a MM cartridge and you should be fine.

[OcdMan]

Thanks, my friend, I cannot tell you how happy I was when I heard volume for the first time from my Yamaha PX-2. I promise the neighbors were not happy :)

You're welcome. It also wouldn't surprise me if the Audio-Technica's output is lower than its rating, and the Shure's is higher. If they're exactly 2.7mV and 4.4mV, that would be a difference of 3.41dB. But if the rating is off a bit on both sides the difference could be closer to 6dB. And that's not factoring in the possibility of a defective cartridge.

I really want a PX-2. :laugh:

If your handy, you can build a Bugle for $80 - it'll match any phono stage listing at around $500. Just use a combo of OPA2134 in U1 and U2, and a OPA2604 in the U3 output stage - magic.

Robert Mills

Excellent choice. This guy (http://cgi.ebay.com/Hagerman-Technology-Turntable-Preamp-Kit-Unbuilt-Bugle_W0QQitemZ190183933023QQihZ009QQcat egoryZ3283QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZV iewItem) is selling Hagerman approved Bugle kits for only $56 shipped.

[OcdMan]

If they're exactly 2.7mV and 4.4mV, that would be a difference of 3.41dB.

Stupid typo. 4.4 should read 4.0. :rolleyes:

[gener8tr]

How do you test the output of a cart? I have a multimeter that I use to check DC off-set on my amps... I assume it would measure the mv output of a cart?

[OcdMan]

How do you test the output of a cart? I have a multimeter that I use to check DC off-set on my amps... I assume it would measure the mv output of a cart?

Shure specifies a cartridge's output as being its RMS voltage at 1kHz at 5cm/sec peak velocity. From what I can gather, companies like Audio-Technica, Denon, and Ortofon do the same. (The oddball was Stanton which used to measure it at 1cm/sec.) I don't know for sure but I'm betting the standard 1kHz reference tone on many test records is cut at 5cm/sec.