Sound card and recording software upgrade suggestions

[Chris R]

From what I've read here extensively over the past 1/2 year, that with the right hardware and software we can get fairly decent results with uploading vinyl onto the computer and making CD-Rs. Seems every other day someone is talking about a Beatles vinyl rip they made. IIRC, some here have said that Todd Frederick's CSNY - Deja Vu vinyl rip is better than the 1993 Atlantic CD remaster and the Japanese HDCD version.

My vinyl collection contains over 2000 LPs, several hundred 45s, and many 12 and 10 inch singles. A fair chunk of this is not on CD, or not on CD the way I'd like to see it. I have been lead to believe that I need to upgrade the sound card on my computer and the recording software in order to get optimum results from the vinyl upload. Understanding of course that I do not own an Oracle turntable with a $10,000 Japanese cartridge. I have a:
Thorens TD 166 Mk II
mid-level Grado cartridge
Hitachi HTA-7000 tuner/amplifier
Sound Blaster Live 16 bit sound card
Cool Edit Pro Version 1.2

I went to Long & McQuade (http://www.long-mcquade.com/) the other day and they suggested that I upgrade to a 24 bit sound card and software that supports 24 bit recording. The sound card they've suggested is "Audophile 2496" ? IIRC. The software they suggested is Wavelab. Quite frankly, I don't have a lot of cash to spend. I'd like to stick to a sound card in the low $200s Canadian and software that is in the $100 to $150 range. The guys at Long & McQuade mentioned they are getting a slightly more expensive external version of that sound card that plugs directly into the USB port and you're off to the races.

Thanks in advance. :)

[Grant]

Fairly decent nothing! You can do spectacular vinyl rips.

You will get many different opinions on what to get, but that SB Live card has to go!

I recommend Cool Edit 2000/Pro for the software. It has a short learning curve and is very easy for even beginners to use. It will do any sampling rate or bit depth you can throw at it. It also works well with any soundcard or Windows OS after Win95. Cool Edit 2000 can be had for a mere $69, but don't let that price fool you! Cool Edit Pro can be found for about as low as $279

I have not heard good things about USB cards because of the latency.

[JoelDF]

Originally posted by Grant
...but that SB Live card has to go...
...unless you have just the right combination of card revision level and driver versions.

But even that is probably more of a fluke combination than anything else - one that, at the moment, I'm pretty happy with until I can afford to get something better.

There is that Santa Cruz Soundcard made by Turtle Beach that can be had for less than 80 bucks that seems to be a very good affordable option as a replacement.

Joel

[RetroSmith]

Stay AWAY from USB sound cards. You will pull your hair out.

If your budget is somewhat limited, listen to me and get a used GINA 20 bit card (thats the older one) Its not 24 bit, but the sound is AMAZING. You should be able to pick one up on EBAY, etc in the 150 range. I used it extensively and i only upgraded to the GINa 24 bit for the ADAT capability, not for the sound quality---no problem with the GINA 20 with Sound quality.

[Chris R]

Grant, Mikey, I have no issue with staying away from the UBS port thing. There is a standard internal version of the "Audiophile" sound card that is about 70 bucks cheaper.

Grant, I like your idea of just upgrading Cool Edit. It will be easier for me, since I am already familiar with the interface. What do you suggest in the way of sound cards?

[Grant]

Miike,

Some people have ideas on what is professional software and what isn't. Cool Edit Pro 2.0 is as every bit as professional as any other software. Some pros and aspiring pros just have a problem with the name. Even the good folks at Syntrillium aknowledge the name image problem.

Soundcards? Once you get up to, and past the SC card, it is hard to pick a bad one, as long as you don't mess with the Creative (LIve, Audigy/Extigy)cards.

One key area you do have to be concerned about is the driver issue, and that some cards don't play well with some chipsets, particularly some AMD mobos.

[Graham Start]

Hey Miike,

I use the 2496 and Cool Edit 2000, with two plug-ins: NR, and one other, I think it's called "Tweakin' Toys", which has a bunch of odd things like convolution and pitch bender. I got that one because it included the hard limiter, so I could remaster my CDs to sound like they were done by Ed Feinblatt. All together this wasn't much cheaper than CE Pro, but I already had Logic Audio, so I didn't need multi-track capability or all the effects.

Despite the fact that the price, marketing, and some of the users of CE would seem quite amaturish (Grant, you're always dealing with those kinds of posts on the Synt forums, so you know what I mean!), this program has some very nice pro features in it that you won't find in other apps costing twice as much. And don't even think about how much you'd have to spend if you were doing this on a Mac...

Warning: you may get hooked on de-clicking. Some of the folks on the Synt forums have been debating optimal settings for months. I gave up on that and do everything manually. Very tedious, but how can I settle for less when I know I can do better?

[Grant]

I do a great job of declicking with Cool Edit NR, SF NR, Click Fix, and manual de-clicking all used together. No one declicker can get the job done all the time. I always aim for 0 clicks.

[Gardo]

If you can afford it, go for a used Event card. Do beware of the conflict potential Grant talks about--true for all soundcards.

I have gotten very good results on vinyl "rips" with my Turtle Beach Santa Cruz (89.00) and Sound Forge 5.0 (150.00 when it inexplicably went on sale at Best Buy). Sound Forge XP is also a good tool at about 60.00. Many, many users here swear by Cool Edit. I respect their opinions, though I haven't yet felt the need to switch.

I predict you'll be very pleasantly surprised at the quality of sound you'll get from a good soundcard and your vinyl, burned onto CD-R.

[petzi]

Originally posted by miike
I went to Long & McQuade (http://www.long-mcquade.com/) the other day and they suggested that I upgrade to a 24 bit sound card and software that supports 24 bit recording. The sound card they've suggested is "Audophile 2496" ? IIRC.

That's a good recommendation. A soundcard with this name is made by M-Audio, I was about to recommend it to you as I read your post.

http://www.midiman.net/products/m-audio/audiophile.php

It is a stereo sound card, and is is probably as good as a PCI soundcard gets these days.

The street price should roughly match your requirement.

[lsupro]

I have reccommended this sound card and use it myself at home and at the station.



Lynx One (http://www.lynxstudio.com/lynxone.html)

[Chris R]

Originally posted by Grant
I do a great job of declicking with Cool Edit NR, SF NR, Click Fix, and manual de-clicking all used together. No one declicker can get the job done all the time. I always aim for 0 clicks.
Originally posted by Graham
Warning: you may get hooked on de-clicking. Some of the folks on the Synt forums have been debating optimal settings for months. I gave up on that and do everything manually. Very tedious, but how can I settle for less when I know I can do better?
Grant, Graham, I only recently started using the "Click/Pop Eliminator" in Cool Edit Pro 1.2 and I am definitely hooked. Before that I was manually editing out the bigger clicks and pops and it took a very long time. Graham, what are Synt forum members saying about the settings? What is the suggested range? Judging by what you just said, I think I should go the manual route.

I just declicked a very old warn out, full of clicks and crackles, early 1960s George Shearing 45 on Capitol and the results seem to be OK. Then I added a touch of bass and treble from "Quick Filters". There's still some issues, probably due to deep groove damage from the very low-fi "Sears" 4 speed automatic stereo phongraph it was played on in the early days. Came with detachable speakers that you could spread a couple feet apart. The tone arm weighed about 5 pounds. :laugh:

Here's a sample (http://www.telusplanet.net/public/reichard/GS-Fairytales.mp3). The first 30 seconds is the single flat. The second part is the song through the "Click/Pop Eliminator" with a touch of EQ.

What sort of EQ should I be using once I've ripped to album onto the computer? Parametric, graphic, "Quick Filters"? I guess it would be a case by case basis? Has anyone ever burned a vinyl rip flat?

[Grant]

If you have a good card, and you don't overdo the NR/declicking, you shouldn't have to do any EQ at all, unless it's for personal taste.

[Chris R]

Originally posted by Gardo
If you can afford it, go for a used Event card. Do beware of the conflict potential Grant talks about--true for all soundcards.

I predict you'll be very pleasantly surprised at the quality of sound you'll get from a good soundcard and your vinyl, burned onto CD-R.
Originally posted by petzi


That's a good recommendation. A soundcard with this name is made by M-Audio, I was about to recommend it to you as I read your post.

http://www.midiman.net/products/m-audio/audiophile.php

It is a stereo sound card, and is is probably as good as a PCI soundcard gets these days.

The street price should roughly match your requirement.
Originally posted by lsupro
I have reccommended this sound card and use it myself at home and at the station.

Lynx One (http://www.lynxstudio.com/lynxone.html)

Thank you all for the suggestions. I will read up on each one, and take some of this info with me to Long & McQuade on Saturday.

Petzi, excellent avatar! :thumbsup: My younger brother and I are big Stranglers fans. Saw them twice in '81 and '83.

[Chris R]

Originally posted by Grant
If you have a good card, and you don't overdo the NR/declicking, you shouldn't have to do any EQ at all, unless it's for personal taste.
Good to know.

Thanks Grant.

[Sckott]

Originally posted by JoelDF

...unless you have just the right combination of card revision level and driver versions.

Joel

This is absolutely correct..... I'm glad someone said this.

[Graham Start]

Originally posted by miike

Graham, what are Synt forum members saying about the settings? What is the suggested range?

I don't know, because I haven't been paying attention. :)

I do everything semi-manually... switch to spectral view, 128 bands, zoom in until you've got about half a second of audio... highlight an area without any percussion attacks or pulse waves, and then I declick with one of my presets. Then move one page on, and repeat... switch presets for heavier or lighter declicking as needed, and use "fill single click" for those deep pops and brief bursts of noise.

Tedious, tedious, tedious... but I can't stand it when auto-declicking removes attack transients or sax waveforms. As I said before, I just can't settle for less when I know I can do better.

[petzi]

Originally posted by miike
Petzi, excellent avatar! :thumbsup: My younger brother and I are big Stranglers fans. Saw them twice in '81 and '83.

Thanks :)

I never saw the Stranglers live, but I always liked their music, especially Aural Sculpture.

I'm not sure if I'm going to keep the avatar in the long run, I think it is a little too detailed given the size constraint for avatars (80x80 pixels).

[Grant]

Originally posted by Graham Start


I don't know, because I haven't been paying attention. :)

I do everything semi-manually... switch to spectral view, 128 bands, zoom in until you've got about half a second of audio... highlight an area without any percussion attacks or pulse waves, and then I declick with one of my presets. Then move one page on, and repeat... switch presets for heavier or lighter declicking as needed, and use "fill single click" for those deep pops and brief bursts of noise.

Tedious, tedious, tedious... but I can't stand it when auto-declicking removes attack transients or sax waveforms. As I said before, I just can't settle for less when I know I can do better.

I use this method too! It's the only way to really zero in on those stubborn clicks that the declickers don't/can't get without the distortion.

[JoelDF]

Originally posted by Grant


I use this method too! It's the only way to really zero in on those stubborn clicks that the declickers don't/can't get without the distortion.

As do I. In fact, it's the only method I use now. I even assigned "Alt-X" key combination to the pop/click removal setting.

I zoom to a fairly tight spectral view (I use 256 bands @ 30% width which draws pretty quickly on my machine), sometimes just between 2 beats. I then highlight just inside a click which shows up as a single narrow spike up the whole spectrum (and usually only in one channel or the other) and hit the keys. I watch to make sure something that belongs to the rest of the sounds doesn't change too much in the process. If so, I undo and go in tighter - or switch to wave view and take out the offending wart there.

That's my extreme tedious method.

The other is just to listen with headphones until I can actually hear a click, then zoom in and take out the ones I hear. It takes several listens, but it goes a little faster. I've learned to distinguish the visible clicks that would be audible from the ones that may not be by the color of that spike. If it's a real quite passage, almost every visible spike is audible, and even some of the haze that may surround that spike.

Joel

[Chris R]

I just downloaded "Cool Edit 2000". Turns out it's a 30 day trial, with minimal functionality. :mad: How the heck are you supposed to test drive something like that?

BUT, I see that Cool Edit 2000 does not have 24 bit recording. It's the same as Cool Edit Pro V 1.2 that I had. :mad: 8 bit, 16 bit and 32 bit float, whatever that is. :confused: I was lead to believe from some of the earlier posts that Cool Edit 2000 had 24 bit capability.

At first, I was suspicious of running the executable because I thought for some reason that it was in fact a demo version. When the first screen appeared, it said something about another version running, so I immediately shut the new .exe down. Well, it totally blew up my previous version. I couldn't run it. In fact I was in the middle of declicking a 5 minute song and cleaning it up. V 1.2 started popping up error dialog boxes as I tried to save and close the file. I had to open up my Creative recorder and set it to "What U Hear" and capture the cleaned up file, so I wouldn't lose all my work. :rolleyes:

SO, question. What version of Cool Edit Pro has the 24 bit recording and mastering functionality?

Thanks. :)

BTW, I'm still working on buying the new sound card. Maybe today, maybe not. :rolleyes:

[rontokyo]

I've got the M-Audio 2496 card and am very happy with the vinyl rips I get. But be forewarned that if you use an integrated amp you will not be able to conrol the input volume. Meaning the signal coming from your amp to the soundcard will be too low and you will have no means to raise it [unless you reconfigure the cables and use your cassette deck's "record level" knob to increase the input level.]

[Grant]

Originally posted by miike
I just downloaded "Cool Edit 2000". Turns out it's a 30 day trial, with minimal functionality. :mad: How the heck are you supposed to test drive something like that?

BUT, I see that Cool Edit 2000 does not have 24 bit recording. It's the same as Cool Edit Pro V 1.2 that I had. :mad: 8 bit, 16 bit and 32 bit float, whatever that is. :confused: I was lead to believe from some of the earlier posts that Cool Edit 2000 had 24 bit capability.

At first, I was suspicious of running the executable because I thought for some reason that it was in fact a demo version. When the first screen appeared, it said something about another version running, so I immediately shut the new .exe down. Well, it totally blew up my previous version. I couldn't run it. In fact I was in the middle of declicking a 5 minute song and cleaning it up. V 1.2 started popping up error dialog boxes as I tried to save and close the file. I had to open up my Creative recorder and set it to "What U Hear" and capture the cleaned up file, so I wouldn't lose all my work. :rolleyes:

SO, question. What version of Cool Edit Pro has the 24 bit recording and mastering functionality?

Thanks. :)

BTW, I'm still working on buying the new sound card. Maybe today, maybe not. :rolleyes:

Cool Edit 2000 AND the pro versions have 24-bit recording if your soundcard supports it. 32-bit float IS actually 24-bit! Your Creative card probably doesn't support 24-bit recording even if it says it does because they do fib.

It is a demo version until you BUY it. It's the way the company keeps people from using the software freely without buying it.

When you install a program you cannot be running anything else, especially another version of the same program! That is a basic rule of installing software!

Uninstall BOTH Cool Edits, delete the Cool Edit Directories and all things associated with it, and then reinstall the demo.

All versions of downloaded Cool Edit begin life as demo versions. When you buy the program and install the serial number with the install exe they send you via email, it will turn into the full blown version with no restrictions.

[Grant]

One more thing, Miike, The current version of Cool Edit Pro is 2.0. I seriously recommend you download it from their website, or one of their mirrors.

It is highly advisable to not try to use a cracked version! If you do, don't say you were warned! Let's just say that the company takes a VERY dim view of hacking software and takes certain measures to punish the perpetrators!;)

[Chris R]

Originally posted by Grant
...It is highly advisable to not try to use a cracked version! If you do, don't say you were warned! Let's just say that the company takes a VERY dim view of hacking software and takes certain measures to punish the perpetrators!;)
Grant I spent a couple of hours at Long & McQuade Saturday aft. A friend of mine who works there is going to get me a deal on "WaveLab". He also suggested Cubase, but it's way out of my price range. One of the other music software guys recommeded Sound Forge. He swears by it. Says he gets amazing vinyl rips at home with it.

I have no intentions of trying to download demo versions of Cool Edit and then searching through "Astalavista" to try and find cracks and serials and stuff. Not for me. Since the new computer install in December I have no "Napster alternative" software running on this machine. No KAAZA, KAAZA lite, WinMX, BearShare, etc. Nothing!

Thanks for the tip. Always good to know thest things :)

Oh, and thanks also the new member "moreismore" who pointed me to M-Audio's new sound card Revolution (http://kellysmusicandcomputers.com/productinfo.asp?id=1042125676). It sells for a lot less than the 2496. The specs look real nice. I'm no so concerned about the surround sound bells and whistles now, but the 105dB signal-to-noise ratio is sweet.

M-Audio Revolution
- PCI solution for high-quality surround sound up to 7.1
- Also supports DTS output and Dolby Digital 5.1/EX (6.1 DVD) decoding
- High-resolution audio output up to 24-bit/192kHz
- True professional 24-bit/96kHz recording
- Incredible 105dB signal-to-noise ration
- Real-time stereo-to-surround conversion
- SRS CircleSurround II technology delivers virtual surround for stereo sources
- Simple control panel for Bass Management and other features
- Supports all popular media players including Windows Media 9
- Includes software bundle worth over $200

The guys at Long & McQuade are going to talk to the their buyer at head office on Monday. This card is fairly new, so it's not in their computer system yet. Hopefully I can get a price on it by mid-week and maybe place an order.