Car Stereo Query: Alpine/BBE

[lschwart]

In the wake of a recent car theft, I upgraded my old very basic Kenwood for a new and somewhat nicer Alpine car stereo. The unit has a funtion for something called "BBE," but I can't get a clear explanation from the manual of exactly what this is (all it says is that it's designed to compensate for the distortion common in most loudspeaker systems). Could someone explain more clearly for me just what the funtion does? On a first listen, it seems to improve the sound considerably in several ways, but it also sounds like it's boosting the treble and bass a bit too much for my taste, like a "loudness" button that's doing a few other things as well.

Any explanation of how it works, what it's doing, and how best to manipulate it would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Louis

[Gary]

I can't help specifically but....

I bought a JVC TV recently - it also has BBE. From the manual:

"BBE high definition audio adds natural, clear and extraordinary sound quality to any program."

and

"BBE is a registered trademark of BBE Sound, Inc."

It's sort of like a gimmicky hologram program. What it actually does is makes the speakers disappear, throws sound effects to the right and left of the TV and stuff like that. There were other TVs with this feature.

I guess the effect would be the same with your Alpine. If it's the same thing.

I'm too lazy to see if they have a web address....

[lschwart]

Gary,

Thanks for responding. Your post sent me to me own web-search. I don't know why I didn't do that in the first place.

Here's a link to BBE's page explaining what it is:

http://www.bbesound.com/technologies/BBE_HDS/

It seems it's not a surround or 3d effect. Instead it claims to be able to compensate for phase and amplitude distortions. There's a fair amount of self-congratulatory explanation on the page I cite above (it's an description of the processor they've licensed to audio manufacturers like Alpine and JVC, so I assume that this is what's in my stereo and your TV). There's even more information in the manual they post for the unit they make for home stereos (you can get to it from the "products" page).

I have to say that it does seem to do what it says it does in my car, but I would love to hear what someone with more knowledge about audio issues has to say about it. Right now my questions and complaints are 1)is it messing with the music? It doesn't sound like it is. Steve's Gold disk of Art Pepper's "Getting Together" has even more clarity and presence than it already had without the BBE on, but it may be that I'm being seduced by something I don't fully understand yet.

2)The only other problem I'm having is that the unit makes the music louder. The bass is bigger and clearer, for example, but it's also LOUDER to the point at which with some recordings I have to turn it down, and then I lose some of the clarity. Either that or I have to lower the volume to a level too close to the road noise for listening. It's either that or it just hurts my ears. Presence is one thing, but it's just too much for the small space of the car, and at loud volume it sounds unsafe for my hearing.

Louis

[Gary Freed]

Hi Louis,

BBE works nicely on some CD's but on others I found it was a distraction.
It's obviously some form of DSP. When I owned an Alpine typically the BBE was kept turned off. It tended to color the music too much for me and I felt that a head unit shouldn't have to do that in order to sound nice.:)

[Bob Lovely]

Louis,

Hi!

I have an outboard BBE professional unit that I use in remastering work when recording on a Reel recorder. If used carefully, with discretion, the unit can be quite help especially on vintage recordings where the tonal balance is way off or on modern recodings where you want to flatten the bass. I use it with great care, however. I do consider it a valuable tool. My Father runs his TV audio through one at home in his Stereo system with outstanding results.

Bob

[Gardo]

This circuit has been around for a while. I believe the "BB" stands for "Barcus-Berry," who make (or made) a highly-regarded line of electric pickups for acoustic instruments. I think the "E" stands for "Enhancement," but that's IIRC.

Also IIRC, the BBE circuit does something along the lines of the Aphex Aural Exciter. I don' t know if it works by adding distortion or what, but it's a frequency- and level-dependent real-time processing circuit, that's for sure. It's been a long time since I've heard the BBE in action, but as I remember it does sorta crisp-up stuff in a way that might be advantageous in a car. I wouldn't want it for home use, myself, but I can see that it might be an interesting mastering tool for some applications.

[lschwart]

Originally posted by Gardo
This circuit has been around for a while. I believe the "BB" stands for "Barcus-Berry," who make (or made) a highly-regarded line of electric pickups for acoustic instruments. I think the "E" stands for "Enhancement," but that's IIRC.

Also IIRC, the BBE circuit does something along the lines of the Aphex Aural Exciter. I don' t know if it works by adding distortion or what, but it's a frequency- and level-dependent real-time processing circuit, that's for sure. It's been a long time since I've heard the BBE in action, but as I remember it does sorta crisp-up stuff in a way that might be advantageous in a car. I wouldn't want it for home use, myself, but I can see that it might be an interesting mastering tool for some applications.

The information at the BBE website specifically says that it doesn't work like an exciter, but I don't know enough to say if that's so or not. After a lot of experimenting with it, I've decided to keep it off most of the time. For many CD's it does make for better sound in many ways (crisper, more spacious, transparent, present, etc.) and it doesn't create any digital edginess. As the hype on the website says, the sensation is like the restoration of an old painting. It clears out a lot of the distortion I hear from the system in its regular mode. The problem is that for some recordings (like some very nice acoustic early Strawbs I was listening to yesterday) it creates more space and openness than seems natural to the original recording (too much coloration, as Gary implied above). But the even bigger problem is the fact that it so punches up the attack of, say, a rim-shot or a slap bass or a sudden growl from the lower register of a tenor sax that even at relatively low volumes it hurts my ears. With the BBE off I can get a relatively smooth and detailed sound out of the system, and I can play it a little more loudly over highway noise without causing pain.

Thanks to all of you who've responded so far to my post. Your comments have been very helpful as I've been getting used to the new system!

Louis

[Gardo]

Mmmm. The circuit may be different from the one I heard in the '80s. This sounds like a phase-related "expander" that also does some work in the frequency domain. I wonder if it's at all like Q-sound. At any rate, I'm highly skeptical of the "restoration" analogy. From here it looks more like coloration, and only you can decide whether it's coloration that you like.

But you knew that already.

[Bob Lovely]

Originally posted by Gardo
Mmmm. The circuit may be different from the one I heard in the '80s. This sounds like a phase-related "expander" that also does some work in the frequency domain. I wonder if it's at all like Q-sound. At any rate, I'm highly skeptical of the "restoration" analogy. From here it looks more like coloration, and only you can decide whether it's coloration that you like.

But you knew that already.

Gardo,

It is described as correcting "naturally occuring harmonic distortion". My outboard unit does not broaden the sound stage in any way. The unit actually expands and compresses certain frequencies simultaneously. If used very "light touch" it can be a useful tool. It does not reduce noise in any way which, I like. While the unit is in use, tape hiss can still be heard. It works great on TV audio - adds detail.

Because I record a lot of vintage hits on Reel tape, I have used mine as a remastering tool in the record chain but, never on playback or on playing of discs on the CD player as a listening experience.

The auto unit may be somewhat different.

Bob

[Gardo]

Originally posted by Bob Lovely


Gardo,

It is described as correcting "naturally occuring harmonic distortion". My outboard unit does not broaden the sound stage in any way. The unit actually expands and compresses certain frequencies simultaneously. If used very "light touch" it can be a useful tool. It does not reduce noise in any way which, I like. While the unit is in use, tape hiss can still be heard. It works great on TV audio - adds detail.

Because I record a lot of vintage hits on Reel tape, I have used mine as a remastering tool in the record chain but, never on playback or on playing of discs on the CD player as a listening experience.

The auto unit may be somewhat different.

Bob

Thanks, Bob. I'm betting your unit and Louis's are different. I do remember something about harmonic distortion in the BBE literature I read in the 80's--that's what made me think of the Aphex.

[lschwart]

Originally posted by Gardo


Thanks, Bob. I'm betting your unit and Louis's are different.

I'm certain that Gardo is right, but I think the difference may simply be a matter of control. From what Bob says, and from the information on BBE's website, the standard unit is controllable. You can turn it up or use it just enough. The unit they've liscensed to Alpine is wired into the stereo, and you can only turn it on or off. I think it's probably set at a pretty high level for dramatic effect. Subtlety doesn't sell well, especially in auto sound, and most people wouldn't bother to figure out how to set the levels for best sound disk to disk.

In any case, lacking any way of controlling how much the circuit affects the sound, I've opted to keep it off. It's a shame, because I think that Bob is right; used gingerly it could work well with some recordings.

Thanks again to everyone for the feedback!

Louis

[Jamie Tate]

I have 4 BBE's in my studio. I sometimes use one of them on dull pianos and woofy bass guitars. Like Bob said, use it with discretion. Too much will make your head hurt. Other than that I think you guys have uncovered the way it works. I am weary of it on one of my mixes though. It messes with phase and splits the highs and lows off to separate processors.

Also, like Bob said, it can do wonders on older recordings.