Toshiba Abbey Road CD

[lukpac]

Originally posted by ets
1) Fired up Exact Audio
2) I hit F4 to detect gaps.
3) I set Exact Audio to "Append Gaps to Previous Selection", the
default setting.
4) Swapped in a blank CD-R
5) Next I went to Tools --> Write CD-R
6) Next I went to "Append Files as New Track (Index 1)
I added all 17 extracts manually
7) Deleted the 2 second gaps that Exact Audio adds in.
8) Next I selected all the Tracks and went to "Edit Selected Indices"
and clicked on "Pre-Emphasis"

I really wish I knew why EAC defaulted to this (Previous Selection), as it isn't the "correct" way of doing things. Try doing this:

- Detect Gaps
- Append Gaps To Next Track
- Create CUE Sheet - Single WAV File...

That should do it.

[Lance Hall]

Good News! :)

I just burned the WAVs from my Toshiba CDR to a new CDR using "Exact Audio Copy" and adding the "FLAGS PRE" parts to the cue sheet as suggested.

I am happy to report complete success!! The disc now plays in my Pioneer CD Player properly de-emphasised (ie. no annoying treble boost).

Thanks tremendously to OcdMan, Ets, and LukPac for helping me and others solve this problem. Also thanks to the others that chipped in relevant info.

Lance Hall

[P.S. I suggest this thread be archived for future reference.]

[Michael]

Originally posted by Lance Hall
Good News! :)

I just burned the WAVs from my Toshiba CDR to a new CDR using "Exact Audio Copy" and adding the "FLAGS PRE" parts to the cue sheet as suggested.

I am happy to report complete success!! The disc now plays in my Pioneer CD Player properly de-emphasised (ie. no annoying treble boost).

Thanks tremendously to OcdMan, Ets, and LukPac for helping me and others solve this problem. Also thanks to the others that chipped in relevant info.

Lance Hall

[P.S. I suggest this thread be archived for future reference.]

Lance, Can you tell any difference from your copy? Did you do an A/B?

[Lance Hall]

Originally posted by Michael
Lance, Can you tell any difference from your copy? Did you do an A/B?

Oh yes, it's obvious. Without the de-emphasis bit "turned on" the old CDR played as though the treble on my amp was cranked too high. Now on the new CDR it sounds "right", closer to the EMI CD, just not as dull.

[Gardo]

Thanks to you dab hands I was able to burn a correctly flagged copy of ABBEY ROAD last night. Sounds just about indistinguishable from my original Japanese CD now. I'm still trying to puzzle through the gaps settings, but the between-track times seem identical too.

Just for fun, I checked out my Japanese Harvest-EMI DSOTM too. Yep, it has pre-emphasis, though EAC reports "no." I tried ripping "Money" and burning it twice to a single CD-R. Track 1 was "Money" with the pre-emphasis flag off, and Track 2 was "Money" with the pre-emphasis flag on. My CD player (Sony CE775) detected the flag like a champ, and sure enough Track 1 sounded much brighter than Track 2, which sounded identical to the original CD. Fascinating.

On a final note: I did a few quick A/B comparisons between the original Japanese AR and the stock copy. I still believe that the stock copy is more compressed than the Japanese copy. Just listen to "Maxwell's Silver Hammer," where the stock copy has clear drops (or "ducks") of the instrumental backing when McCartney sings. The Japanese AR, by contrast, has a more even, consistent-sounding mix between vocal and instruments. The extra compression on the stock copy also has the effect of boosting the apparent level of hiss, which may be why you hear more hiss on your stock copy, Luke. I'd be willing to bet that the extra compression on the stock copy drove some of the NR that I still believe EMI did for the official release of AR. At any rate, the extra hiss seems to be an artifact of the compression, to my ears, and not evidence of an NR-free recording.

I also hear a grainy midrange EQ boost on the stock copy, as well as a compressed and rubbery sounding bass. By contrast, the Japanese AR sounds very clear and neutral and open.

[Michael St. Clair]

What happens to the digital stream (using consumer Toslink or SPDIF) coming out of a device depending on whether the pre-emphasis was correctly flagged or not?

Is the bit passed in the bitstream, are the numbers digitally EQ'd to take the pre-emphasis out, or is nothing done at all?

Does the DAC process to compensate for the pre-emphasis, or does the transport?

I'm thinking of the impact of pre-empasis on making Minidiscs for portable listening, but there are (obviously) other cases where this could be an issue.

Also, is there a reliable way on a PC to determine if the bit is set (without making a copy and performing a listening test)?

[lukpac]

Originally posted by Gardo
The extra compression on the stock copy also has the effect of boosting the apparent level of hiss, which may be why you hear more hiss on your stock copy, Luke. I'd be willing to bet that the extra compression on the stock copy drove some of the NR that I still believe EMI did for the official release of AR. At any rate, the extra hiss seems to be an artifact of the compression, to my ears, and not evidence of an NR-free recording.

I also hear a grainy midrange EQ boost on the stock copy, as well as a compressed and rubbery sounding bass. By contrast, the Japanese AR sounds very clear and neutral and open.

Note that the midrange boost would bring out the hiss a bit.

I still don't agree with the NR argument. The whole point of the process is to reduce hiss, and that hasn't happened on the stock CD. Why would there be NR (that people could notice, no less) and yet be no difference in hiss (or even more hiss)?

BTW, interesting that EAC isn't picking up the PE bit. I just stuck in my copy burned with PE, and EAC flagged it without issue. Are you using the newest version of EAC?

[Gardo]

Originally posted by lukpac


Note that the midrange boost would bring out the hiss a bit.

Quite true.


I still don't agree with the NR argument. The whole point of the process is to reduce hiss, and that hasn't happened on the stock CD. Why would there be NR (that people could notice, no less) and yet be no difference in hiss (or even more hiss)?

Well, as I said there'd be more hiss if the stock CD was compressed, and to my ears it sounds considerably more compressed than the Japanese CD. My hunch is that the compression on the stock CD brought out more hiss, and the NR was applied to keep it "acceptable," though the result was, ironically, more hiss remaining on the stock CD than if they'd just done a flat transfer and left the compression out of it.

BTW, in his Beatles Sessions book Mark Lewissohn specifically discusses NR issues on "I Want You," which indicates to me that in fact the stock CD did have some kind of NR treatment. It's conceivable that some of the midrange grit might also result from downband effects of the NR.


BTW, interesting that EAC isn't picking up the PE bit. I just stuck in my copy burned with PE, and EAC flagged it without issue. Are you using the newest version of EAC?

EAC doesn't pick up the PE bit on the original CD. It does indicate PE on the correctly flagged copy. I have no idea why this should be the case. The Japanese CD is pre-emphasized, of that we're all certain. Now, with the bit set correctly, so is my CD-R copy. Why does EAC pick up the latter's flag but not the former's? Interesting question. I have the latest version of EAC at work, and a slightly earlier version at home. I'll install the latest version at home and report back on whether it picks up the PE bit on the original Japanese CD.

It'd be nice to have software that WOULD pick up the PE bit on the originals; that way I wouldn't have to do so many burns and A/B comparisons to test for PE on my older Japanese CDs. I suppose I could do it simply by ripping a test file and seeing how bright it is, but I don't trust the comparison unless I A/B a test file against a properly de-emphasized CD, and the CD-ROM drives on my computer do NOT seem to deemphasize CDs that need it. Actually the analog outputs on my CD-ROM drives are pretty garbage-y; when I want to do serious listening, I listen to S/PDIF digital out through my Santa Cruz D/A converters, and that output most definitely does NOT do de-emphasis, so the comparison is useless.

[lukpac]

Originally posted by Gardo
Well, as I said there'd be more hiss if the stock CD was compressed, and to my ears it sounds considerably more compressed than the Japanese CD. My hunch is that the compression on the stock CD brought out more hiss, and the NR was applied to keep it "acceptable," though the result was, ironically, more hiss remaining on the stock CD than if they'd just done a flat transfer and left the compression out of it.

While I don't currently have a way to measure dynamic range, I just recorded Hear Comes The Sun from both CDs, using my CD player and soundcard (as to take into account PE). Other than the fact that the Japanese CD is 3.6 dB lower in level, I don't visually detect any real differences in the waveforms in terms of compression.

BTW, in his Beatles Sessions book Mark Lewissohn specifically discusses NR issues on "I Want You," which indicates to me that in fact the stock CD did have some kind of NR treatment.

Actually, no mention of noise reduction is made, just that the white noise "caused problems":

Extraneous tape noise is the bane of a recording producer or engineer's life, to be kept at a low level, or out, at all times. And here was John Lennon deliberately introducing white noise onto a Beatles recording. It was to cause EMI engineers great concern in 1987 when they were digitally re-mastering Abbey Road for release on compact disc. On record the noise was tolerable but with the increased dynamic range of CD it posed a real problem.

Again, it really seems unlikely that NR would be used, since the hiss levels are virtually the same. EQ and compression (if it was used at all) wouldn't cause the hiss level to rise that much.

[PMC7027]

Originally posted by Michael St. Clair
What happens to the digital stream (using consumer Toslink or SPDIF) coming out of a device depending on whether the pre-emphasis was correctly flagged or not?

Is the bit passed in the bitstream, are the numbers digitally EQ'd to take the pre-emphasis out, or is nothing done at all?

Does the DAC process to compensate for the pre-emphasis, or does the transport?

I'm thinking of the impact of pre-empasis on making Minidiscs for portable listening, but there are (obviously) other cases where this could be an issue.

Also, is there a reliable way on a PC to determine if the bit is set (without making a copy and performing a listening test)?

The DAC does the extra processing required by the pre-emphasis bot being set. A transport extracts the data from the spinning disc, performs error correction-concealment if necessary, formats it, and send it out the selected output (TOSLINK, COAX, AT&T ST Glass, etc.).

[Gardo]

Originally posted by lukpac


...

While I don't currently have a way to measure dynamic range, I just recorded Hear Comes The Sun from both CDs, using my CD player and soundcard (as to take into account PE). Other than the fact that the Japanese CD is 3.6 dB lower in level, I don't visually detect any real differences in the waveforms in terms of compression.

Compare "Maxwell's Silver Hammer" on the two versions. Compare the opening drum fill on "Something." Compare the way the vocal sits in the mix on "Come Together." I hear more compression here and elsewhere than I hear on the Japanese AR.


Again, it really seems unlikely that NR would be used, since the hiss levels are virtually the same. EQ and compression (if it was used at all) wouldn't cause the hiss level to rise that much.

Compression can make hiss levels much more evident, IME, especially when there's a big change in level and the hiss gets pumped up. But I agree that we've mostly guesswork to go on here, since the NR (if there was any) obviously wasn't used to an extreme extent.

I do think that the Japanese AR is a much more neutral-sounding transfer than the stock CD. Do you agree, now that you've got a properly flagged copy?

[Michael St. Clair]

The DAC does the extra processing required by the pre-emphasis bot being set. A transport extracts the data from the spinning disc, performs error correction-concealment if necessary, formats it, and send it out the selected output (TOSLINK, COAX, AT&T ST Glass, etc.).

You could have just said that the bit is passed in the bitstream. ;)

I've discovered that the pre-emphasis bit is part of the minidisc spec as well, so presumably when digitally dubbing CD->MD the empasis is left and the bit carried through.

[Evan]

Originally posted by Lance Hall
Good News! :)

I just burned the WAVs from my Toshiba CDR to a new CDR using "Exact Audio Copy" and adding the "FLAGS PRE" parts to the cue sheet as suggested.

I am happy to report complete success!! The disc now plays in my Pioneer CD Player properly de-emphasised (ie. no annoying treble boost).

Thanks tremendously to OcdMan, Ets, and LukPac for helping me and others solve this problem. Also thanks to the others that chipped in relevant info.

Lance Hall

[P.S. I suggest this thread be archived for future reference.]

I did the same with my Japanese copy of "Darkness on the edge of town" and it worked as well. Thanks for the info on how to set the Pre-emphasis guys! Now if only EAC would recognize Pre-emphasis on the original disc, that would save a lot of time :)

[Michael St. Clair]

Considering that there are utilities that will even tell you the substrate formulation and manufacturer of a CD-R, there sure as hell ought to be an easy way to check the pre-empasis flag on a CD. And yes, EAC ought to recognize it.

[Evan]

Originally posted by Michael St. Clair
Considering that there are utilities that will even tell you the substrate formulation and manufacturer of a CD-R, there sure as hell ought to be an easy way to check the pre-empasis flag on a CD. And yes, EAC ought to recognize it.

And yet it does not. It does recognize the CDR though, as has been mentioned.