Toshiba Abbey Road CD

[PMC7027]

Originally posted by Ed Bishop


Thanks, gang! 'Pre-Emphasis' was what I was struggling to think of last nite but just couldn't remember it. The Japan AR is an old CD, and that's what I think the problem is. When I play it back you get basic mild analog hiss, but nothing more; everything, to me, seems in place.

As far as anybody knows, this was literally a 'one-shot': Odeon Japan was told to stop, and they did, with this one disc. The supply was allowed to run out(rather than a recall, which would have been not only pointless but just about impossible--this is the Beatles were' talkin' about)and that was that. Still can't find that dratted domestic AR, but all subsequent releases of any Beatles EMI material is supposed to match up worldwide--that was the whole point of killing this CD in the first place. Uniformity and conformity, sound quality up to the guys in London and nowhere else. And so it's been since '87...

ED:cool:

At the same time as Abbey Road Toshiba also released Paul's Tug Of War, as serial # CP35-3001. This release was also halted, but for some reason is not the collectors' item Abbey Road is.

[Gardo]

Originally posted by lukpac
The Japanese pressing is certainly much brighter than any other version I've heard, CD or LP.

My guess is they jacked up the treble on that - not uncommon for a Japanese issue.

NB: I've edited my post below to correct mistaken earlier data resulting from ripped files without proper de-emphasis.

I've got the original Japanese pressing (not a CDR) as well as the later worldwide EMI release, and the Japanese pressing doesn't sound brightened to me. It sounds quite neutral to my ears, particularly in the vocals. This album was recorded on a solid-state desk instead of a tube desk, so it may sound a little crisper or drier than the band's earlier recordings, but the Toshiba-EMI CD is transparent and dynamic, more so than the "official" release, which sounds less lively and neutral to my ears.

To my ears the difference between the Japanese Abbey Road and the domestic issue is a bit like the difference between a Hoffman master and a pretty good "standard" master. As happens once you've heard a Hoffman, there's no going back; it sounds like a full virtual world instead of a mere two-dimensional recording. The difference between the Japanese Abbey Road and the "official" release isn't quite that dramatic, but the Japanese AR is a significant and welcome improvement over the stock issue.

[Matt]

This whole PE concept is pretty interesting. I ripped "Come Together" off the Toshiba Abbey Road CD (using Nero on a PC; Nero doesn't seem to have anything to control PE), and burned a CD-RW (yeah, I know CD-RW's have problems, but for the purposes of this test, it seemed all right). The first immediate thing I noticed wasn't just brightness, but amplified tape hiss or high frequency noise, whatever it may be. Anyway, I looked up PE on google and found this page, which describes PE as being something similar to Dolby NR.

http://www.ee.washington.edu/conselec/CE/reports/Group.1/matt_page_individual/subcode.html

Anyone know of any other PE CD's out there? Old "target" Warner CD's? Maybe original pressings of Steve's "From The Original Master Tapes" and "Who's Next"? When did they stop doing this, and did they do it on every CD when they did do it?

[Michael]

Originally posted by Gardo

As happens once you've heard a Hoffman, there's no going back; it sounds like a full virtual world instead of a mere two-dimensional recording.

Even Steve's Mono sounds Stereo!!! OPEN, AIRY, BREATHING, SMOOTH, TEXTURED, LIQUIDY.... just amazing! I'm sooooo spoiled. :laugh: :thumbsup:

[Lance Hall]

I was comparing mp3s of the Toshiba and EMI discs and playing via WinAmp which has a nice little 10 band EQ. With the Toshiba mp3s I have to lower the treble bands from 5-10 dbs and raise the bass bands 4-5 dbs to roughly match the EMI disc. Even with this large cut in the treble it still sounds good, not as dull as the EMI, and it does indeed sound more "alive" than the EMI CD.

------------------------------

I just did a Google search and very relevant page on pre-emphasis (http://webclub.kcom.ne.jp/ma/takabin/eng/). Click "emphasis".

Some old CD tracks are recorded [with] high frequency emphasis. When the track is playbacked, [the] CD player reduces high frequency. As a result, offensive high frequency noise is reduced. This process is called de-emphasis. Most CD players have a de-emphasis circuit internally, but some recent cheap players don't have it.

Evidently my 1992 CD player (Pioneer PD-M435) and my computer's CDRom drive do not have a de-emphasis circuit. That's why the disc plays/rips brighter than normal with my equipment.

The Winamp EQ settings suggested on the page above are similar in shape to the Toshiba EQ preset I made myself. :p

------------------------------

To sum it up... The Toshiba "Abbey Road" is an excellent sounding disc, just make sure you have a player than can decode it properly. :thumbsup:

Lance Hall

[wynnwikman]

My old Denon cd player had a led that lit when a PE disc was played, i wrote to them about it once, but didn't understand their reply very well - something like "some discs are like that, there is no way to switch off (or on)". I don't remember what trigered the light, i had a couple, maybe my early Japan DSOTM was one of them that triggered led.

Wynn

[lukpac]

Originally posted by Holy Zoo
I have read - as you have - that many people feel that noise reduction was applied. Hence my surprise that you don't hear much difference.

I really think this stems from the fact that most people have copies without the PE bit set. If you listen with it set, it's clear there's *more* hiss on the stock copy, most likely due to a bit of an EQ boost.

I'd agree with Angel that the stock is a tad harsh in the midrange in comparison, but again, there's *more* hiss on the stock copy, not less.

[lukpac]

Originally posted by Gardo
I'd say the "official" EMI release sounds duller and more bassy, partly because of the NoNoise treatment [it's certainly there; Mark Lewissohn admits as much in his account of EMI's efforts to tame the hiss on "I Want You"]

Again, I don't believe there's any NR - there's *more* hiss on the stock copy.

and partly because the dynamic range has obviously been compressed, sometimes mightily so, as I reported on an earlier thread:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7362&highlight=japanese+and+abbey+and+road

I see I never finished my comparison webpage--sorry!

Note that such a comparison isn't really valid, because when you rip the Japanese CD to your hard drive, you're not compensating for the pre-emphasis. The file on computer is "bright" in comparison to what you should be hearing. The EQ that gets applied when playing back in a CD player doesn't get applied when you rip to your hard drive.

[lukpac]

Originally posted by Lance Hall
Evidently my 1992 CD player (Pioneer PD-M435) and my computer's CDRom drive do not have a de-emphasis circuit. That's why the disc plays/rips brighter than normal with my equipment.

I'd be surprised if your CD player didn't have a de-emphasis circuit. Have you confirmed that the bit is in fact set on the disc? My guess (if it's a CD-R) is that it isn't. Make a copy of that, and make sure to set the PE bit.

[Lance Hall]

Ok, so it's more likely that the WAVs on the CDR don't have the emphasis bit turned on rather than MY player not decoding it properly due to the lack of a "de-emphasis" ability.

I don't have the manual for my CD player and so can't tell if there is/is not a de-emphasis circuit.

I went through my NERO CDRom program and saw no options relating to setting emphasis. I have no way to determine if the bit is on or off. What program did you use?

[Dob]

Originally posted by Lance Hall
The Winamp EQ settings suggested on the page above are similar in shape to the Toshiba EQ preset I made myself.

I tried that Cool Edit EQ curve, and when I compared the CD-R to the original CD, there was still a very audible difference. I think that filter takes off too much high end.

There is actually a formula that will give you the exact pre-emphasis boost/cut for each frequency. But it seems like an awful lot of trouble when all you have to do is set the pre-emphasis bit - not that I've been able to figure that out yet, with my burning software.

[Lance Hall]

Originally posted by Dob
I tried that Cool Edit EQ curve, and when I compared the CD-R to the original CD, there was still a very audible difference. I think that filter takes off too much high end.

Yeah, my personal Toshiba EQ curve gradually drops 10dbs from the 3k band to the 16k band whereas the suggested curve drops 10dbs from the 3k band to the 12k band where it flattens out. Well, I guess at this point it's a matter of personal preference and differences in systems. I should have said my personal EQ curve and the recomended curve were "similar, in that it drops 10dbs from 3k to 16k".

There is actually a formula that will give you the exact pre-emphasis boost/cut for each frequency. But it seems like an awful lot of trouble when all you have to do is set the pre-emphasis bit - not that I've been able to figure that out yet, with my burning software.

Hopefully someone will chime in with a suggestion of some software/shareware that will allow us to set the pre-emphasis bit on the WAVs so that we can burn a correct CDR.

[Gardo]

Originally posted by lukpac


Note that such a comparison isn't really valid, because when you rip the Japanese CD to your hard drive, you're not compensating for the pre-emphasis. The file on computer is "bright" in comparison to what you should be hearing. The EQ that gets applied when playing back in a CD player doesn't get applied when you rip to your hard drive.

I've run some tests and you're absolutely right, Luke. I apologize for my mistake, and I've edited the post you've quoted so that there's no link to my erroneous data. I should have compared the rips to the original CD more carefully; with CDDAE's verify function, I usually just look for zero errors and move on.

Looks like I'll need to do some A/B comparisons by ear, though in listening to my original Japanese CD I still feel the sound is more alive and transparent than the stock copy. I'm betting the dynamic range is wider on the Japanese CD, though obviously I can't substantiate that unless I can apply PE to the rip.

Luke, what software are you using that allows you to set the PE bit to "on"? I haven't been able to make a correct copy yet. Interestingly, when I run Exact Audio Copy it says that my Japanese Abbey Road does NOT have pre-emphasis, though it's clear from my efforts to copy the CD that it does. I do want to be able to make a safety copy, at least!

I am reminded yet again of the need for hard data to back up or at least contextualize our subjective assessments. Thanks, Luke, and everyone else for helping me out here.

[lukpac]

Originally posted by Gardo
Luke, what software are you using that allows you to set the PE bit to "on"? I haven't been able to make a correct copy yet. Interestingly, when I run Exact Audio Copy it says that my Japanese Abbey Road does NOT have pre-emphasis, though it's clear from my efforts to copy the CD that it does. I do want to be able to make a safety copy, at least!

None that I'm aware of, unfortunately. This is the best I can come up with:

http://www.solorb.com/dat-heads/digests/V5.400/D469

2. Instead of re-flagging, apply software de-emphasis to the pre-emphasised
wav file on your HD. Use a wave editor such as CEP/SF/Wavelab equipped with
the Waves Direct X plugin - Waves Q 10 Paragraphic software preset "DAT-CD
de/pre-emphasis". That has served me well for re-balancing some old PCM 601
tapes.

3. If you don't have this plugin then you can get always get an
approximation to the de-emphasis curve using a graphic or multiband
parametric equalizer.
If it is any help, you can generate your target 15/50us EIAJ de-emphasis
curve using the following equation:
======================================== ====================
y = 10log(A/B) - 10.4576

where:

y = dB output at a frequency of f Hz
A = 1 + 1/(H x H)
B = 1 + 1/(L x L)
H = (2 x pi x f x t(H))
L = (2 x pi x f x t(L))
t(H) = high freq. time-const (0.000015 sec)
t(L) = low freq. time-const (0.000050 sec)
10.4576 just normalizes the response relative to 0 Hz = 0dB

(make the dB figures all pos. or all neg. for pre- or de-emphasis, resp.).
======================================== ===================

[Gardo]

Thanks for the EQ and for the math, Luke. I'll still keep searching for a way to copy the PE bit, or turn it on at burntime. I'm puzzled that Exact Audio Copy reports no pre-emphasis. For the record, my CD-ROM drive's analog outputs do have a pre-emphasis circuit built into them somewhere; I hear roughly the same tonality there as on my main player (though the main player has much better resolving power).

[Holy Zoo]

I believe that Roxio Jam can do it - but, it might be a mac-only program.

[Holy Zoo]

Yep... here 'tis:

http://www.roxio.com/en/products/toastwithjam/faqs.jhtml#8

Search

[lukpac]

Yep - I burned my corrected CD with Jam this morning. It's quite easy. If you have a Mac, of course.

[OcdMan]

To set the pre-emphasis bit in Exact Audio Copy you need to manually edit the CUE sheet using the editor in EAC.

Here's an example.

Pre-emphasis off (default):

FILE "C:\Track01.wav" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
INDEX 01 00:00:00

FILE "C:\Track02.wav" WAVE
TRACK 02 AUDIO
INDEX 01 00:00:00

Pre-emphasis on:

FILE "C:\Track01.wav" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
FLAGS PRE
INDEX 01 00:00:00

FILE "C:\Track02.wav" WAVE
TRACK 02 AUDIO
FLAGS PRE
INDEX 01 00:00:00

[Gardo]

Excellent information, gentlemen. I will of course politely overlook the blatant Mac snobbery.:D

JOKE!:p :p I love you all!:p

[lukpac]

Could someone who:

1) has an *original* copy of this
2) uses Exact Audio Copy
3) has the gap detection properly set

please create and post a proper CUE file for the CD? I've got two CD-R copies - 1 has pauses on a few tracks (which I'd *assume* is correct, but I'd like to be sure), the other doesn't have any pauses (which I'd assume is incorrect).

[lennonfan]

I'm surprised anyone thinks the Toshiba or EMI stock copies sound good. I bought the Japan in late '83 for $28.50 (pricey, for then) and everyone I knew who listened to it with me thought it was lame.
It was novel tho, to have a cd of the Beatles at that time:)
I didn't like the stock issue when it came out, either. I'd rather hear the MFSL. Personally, I think the apple-1 orig. UK lps are best of this album, but undoubtedly when a new Hi-rez version is released (I say maybe 2 years from now) it will show everyone just how horrible those redbook cds sounded.
Not to mention they could do a killer m/ch mix!

[GabeG]

Two things: All cd players have de-emphisis circuits, they are required in the CD standard. However, if you've read enough Stereophile test reports, it isn't uncommon for the circuit to not be 100% effective.

Also, remember that the Japanese Abbey Road was cut at a much, much lower level. If comparing the two versions, that should be taken into account.


- Gabe

[lukpac]

Originally posted by lennonfan
I'm surprised anyone thinks the Toshiba or EMI stock copies sound good. I bought the Japan in late '83 for $28.50 (pricey, for then) and everyone I knew who listened to it with me thought it was lame.
It was novel tho, to have a cd of the Beatles at that time:)
I didn't like the stock issue when it came out, either.

LF, have you listened to either copy recently? A lot of times such bad memories are due to the CD players of the time, which weren't as good as they are now.

[ets]

Originally posted by lukpac
Could someone who:

1) has an *original* copy of this
2) uses Exact Audio Copy
3) has the gap detection properly set

please create and post a proper CUE file for the CD? I've got two CD-R copies - 1 has pauses on a few tracks (which I'd *assume* is correct, but I'd like to be sure), the other doesn't have any pauses (which I'd assume is incorrect).


I have a copy of Toshiba CP35-3016 Abbey Road, I bought
off Ebay a couple of years ago for $70.

Here is how I generated my CUE sheet:

1) Fired up Exact Audio
2) I hit F4 to detect gaps.
3) I set Exact Audio to "Append Gaps to Previous Selection", the
default setting. Extracted CD, 17 WAV files
4) Swapped in a blank CD-R
5) Next I went to Tools --> Write CD-R
6) Next I went to "Append Files as New Track (Index 1)
I added all 17 extracts manually
7) Deleted the 2 second gaps that Exact Audio adds in.
8) Next I selected all the Tracks and went to "Edit Selected Indices"
and clicked on "Pre-Emphasis"

Here is the CUE sheet that Exact Audio
generates for me:

PERFORMER "The Beatles"
TITLE "Abbey Road - Toshiba CP35-3016"
FILE "C:\home\smart\AUDIO\BEATLES\AR\Track01.w av" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
FLAGS PRE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\home\smart\AUDIO\BEATLES\AR\Track02.w av" WAVE
TRACK 02 AUDIO
FLAGS PRE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\home\smart\AUDIO\BEATLES\AR\Track03.w av" WAVE
TRACK 03 AUDIO
FLAGS PRE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\home\smart\AUDIO\BEATLES\AR\Track04.w av" WAVE
TRACK 04 AUDIO
FLAGS PRE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\home\smart\AUDIO\BEATLES\AR\Track05.w av" WAVE
TRACK 05 AUDIO
FLAGS PRE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\home\smart\AUDIO\BEATLES\AR\Track06.w av" WAVE
TRACK 06 AUDIO
FLAGS PRE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\home\smart\AUDIO\BEATLES\AR\Track07.w av" WAVE
TRACK 07 AUDIO
FLAGS PRE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\home\smart\AUDIO\BEATLES\AR\Track08.w av" WAVE
TRACK 08 AUDIO
FLAGS PRE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\home\smart\AUDIO\BEATLES\AR\Track09.w av" WAVE
TRACK 09 AUDIO
FLAGS PRE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\home\smart\AUDIO\BEATLES\AR\Track10.w av" WAVE
TRACK 10 AUDIO
FLAGS PRE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\home\smart\AUDIO\BEATLES\AR\Track11.w av" WAVE
TRACK 11 AUDIO
FLAGS PRE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\home\smart\AUDIO\BEATLES\AR\Track12.w av" WAVE
TRACK 12 AUDIO
FLAGS PRE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\home\smart\AUDIO\BEATLES\AR\Track13.w av" WAVE
TRACK 13 AUDIO
FLAGS PRE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\home\smart\AUDIO\BEATLES\AR\Track14.w av" WAVE
TRACK 14 AUDIO
FLAGS PRE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\home\smart\AUDIO\BEATLES\AR\Track15.w av" WAVE
TRACK 15 AUDIO
FLAGS PRE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\home\smart\AUDIO\BEATLES\AR\Track16.w av" WAVE
TRACK 16 AUDIO
FLAGS PRE
INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "C:\home\smart\AUDIO\BEATLES\AR\Track17.w av" WAVE
TRACK 17 AUDIO
FLAGS PRE
INDEX 01 00:00:00


Hope this helps.
Edgar