Turn Turn Turn session musicians (revisited)

[lukpac]

A few days ago somebody mentioned that Hal Blaine played on Turn Turn Turn. Well, I e-mailed Roger McGuinn, and this is what he had to say:

That's news to me. Michael Clarke took 77 takes to get the drums right on
that track!

Cheers,

Roger

So, it looks like we've got a bit of a conflict here.

[Highway Star]

Gee whiz, Clarke must of been 8 Miles High! ;)

[czeskleba]

Steve was one of the folks who said it was Hal Blaine, and the impression I got from his post was that he got his info straight from the Hal's mouth. Interesting. Someone else said TTT appears in Hal Blaine's discography, but I'm not sure what their source for that was (the song is not listed on Blaine's website). I'd be inclined to believe Roger. He certainly has no reason to lie to protect Clarke's reputation at this point.

[Chris M]

The thing that intrests me is not so much who drums on Turn, Turn, Turn but the fact that Luke got a personal email from Roger McGuinn!!

Chris

[David R. Modny]

The sad fact is that, before the trolls chased him away in a nasty thread regarding a stolen Rickenbacker guitar, McGuinn used to freely partake in the Byrds newsgroup discussions. He's still nice enough to field an occasional question via e-mail. What's interesting is that this isn't the first time that there's been a debate regarding who played what on a Byrds recording. On the forementioned newsgroup, McGuinn produced an AFM contract sheet that clearly showed Larry Knectel played bass on MTM, when Carol Kaye stated that she recalled it might have been her. She was saying things like Knectel never played the electric bass with a pick, yet Mcguinn was adamant in saying that it was indeed Larry (as bootlegs and photos had always clearly shown).

[lukpac]

Originally posted by Chris M:
The thing that intrests me is not so much who drums on Turn, Turn, Turn but the fact that Luke got a personal email from Roger McGuinn!!

I've never met him in person, but he's always been nice in e-mail over the years...

[Vivaldinization]

Beh...I've never gotten an email from anybody famous (unless, like, Efram Turchik and Alec Palao count, and they dont' respond anymore...*sigh*)

In any case, I thoguht the thread that chased Roger away was about the 700 Club?

-D

[David R. Modny]

Every now and then I get an e-mail from some dude named Pacholski...with a silent "c"...claims he's the King of Wisconsin.

[Unknown]

Originally posted by David R. Modny:
Every now and then I get an e-mail from some dude named Pacholski...with a silent "c"...claims he's the King of Wisconsin.

Same here. This guy is obviously delusional. I have a script that sends all his mail to the trash. :p

[czeskleba]

Originally posted by David R. Modny:
The sad fact is that, before the trolls chased him away in a nasty thread regarding a stolen Rickenbacker guitar, McGuinn used to freely partake in the Byrds newsgroup discussions.

As someone else pointed out, it was not the Rick dispute (a guy claims to have the guitar used on 8MH, Roger denies it's the right guitar, the guy goes crazy and starts spewing invective at Roger) which drove Roger away from alt.music.byrds. It was the 700 Club debacle (Roger, a born-again Christian, appeared on the 700 Club, and a bunch of people in the group started taking him to task for implicitly condoning homophobia by appearing with Pat Robertson. It got REALLY nasty and personal, and finally Roger stopped posting there.

McGuinn produced an AFM contract sheet that clearly showed Larry Knectel played bass on MTM, when Carol Kaye stated that she recalled it might have been her.

No offense to Carol Kaye, but her memory seems to be fuzzy sometimes. Her website lists her as playing on Elvis' "Suspicious Minds", which just is not true.

[RetroSmith]

Hal has mentioned many times how he used to go in to the studio to "fix up" already recorded drum tracks...sometimes, going right "over" the existing one because it wasnt on a seperate track that could be erased, in the 4 track days.

[lukpac]

Originally posted by Mikey:
Hal has mentioned many times how he used to go in to the studio to "fix up" already recorded drum tracks...

Do you really think Terry Melcher would bother with 77 takes using Mike Clarke if he was just going to bring in Hal?

I know bootlegs feature parts of the TTT session. Does anyone have one to listen to here? I've got one Byrds boot, but it doesn't have that song.

[RetroSmith]

Luke, After 70+ takes, if the drummer wasnt makin' it, I ABSOLUTELY think Terry Melcher would have brought Hal Blaine in to finish it!!

Snuff Garret did it with Gary Lewis.....let Gary play drums on the original tracks, then brought in Hal to overdub a "hit" drum track.

Terry used Hal on many , many things,like The Rip Chords, Bruce and Terry, Wayne Newton, ect. Hal helped make the hits for Terry, that kept he and Bruce Johnston employed.....Mike Clarke didnt.

[lukpac]

Originally posted by Mikey:
Luke, After 70+ takes, if the drummer wasnt makin' it, I ABSOLUTELY think Terry Melcher would have brought Hal Blaine in to finish it!!

The thing is, why would Terry even go to 70+ takes? Don't you think he would just say "forget it" early on if he was going to use Hal? The fact that he went to 70+ takes seems to tell me that Terry was intent on getting it right with Mike.

Why would Terry use Mike for the entire first album (other than the single), then go back to Hal for the next single? And then use Mike again for the rest of the second album?

[RetroSmith]

Originally posted by Luke Pacholski:


Why would Terry use Mike for the entire first album (other than the single), then go back to Hal for the next single? And then use Mike again for the rest of the second album?

>>>>>>>In 1965, the goal was to have Hit singles, my friend. No one cared much about
LP filler. Hit singles = The Wrecking Crew.

[RetroSmith]

Luke, I just asked Hal about it, as soon as he gets back to me, I'll post here.

Ok?

[lukpac]

Originally posted by Mikey:
In 1965, the goal was to have Hit singles, my friend. No one cared much about LP filler. Hit singles = The Wrecking Crew.

Once again, why would Melcher bother with *any* takes with Clarke if that was the case?

Assuming Hal says he played on the track, it's his word against Roger's. I've got no reason to belive Roger is trying to cover anything up, and the fact that he remembers the recording sessions for that song seems to indicate that he is still familiar with the circumstances surrounding it.

[JohnnyK]

I play drums, and it does not seem possible that it would take 70 takes before a drummer would get TTT correct. TTT is not a difficult song to play drums to. If Clarke needed 70 takes to get TTT correct, he should have been fired on the spot.

[czeskleba]

Originally posted by JohnnyK:
If Clarke needed 70 takes to get TTT correct, he should have been fired on the spot.


Well, remember that at the time TTT was recorded, Clarke had only been playing the drums for about a year. He was learning on the job. The sixties was a strange time... guys would get hired because they "looked like a drummer" even if they'd never touched a stick before (Skip Spence in the Jefferson Airplane being another example).

From what I've heard, the entire second album took a really long time to record, and Clarke's drumming was probably a big part of the reason why. He managed to develop into a pretty interesting drummer, though.

[pauljones]

Please read my topic "Who Played On Byrds Albums". I do not think Mike Clarke played on anything until "Younger Than Yesterday". Then the drums got clunky and ragged--not anything like the precision represented on songs like Eight Miles High, It Won't Be Wrong, Here Without You, etc. Yes, Mike Clarke was an interesting drummer. But, I maintain he was not the drummer on the recordings prior to "Younger Than Yesterday".+

[lukpac]

And, again, you have no basis for this. Heck, Roger McGuinn and Hal Blaine *both* agree that Mike played drums on Turn Turn Turn. What reason would they have to lie? Roger has openly stated that the wrecking crew played on the first single. Why would he openly give up that information but lie about later sessions?

[Douglas]

Originally posted by pauljones31:
I do not think Mike Clarke played on anything until "Younger Than Yesterday". Then the drums got clunky and ragged--not anything like the precision represented on songs like Eight Miles High, It Won't Be Wrong, Here Without You, etc.

Is it possible that his drumming style changed along with their music? I know when Strawberry Fields Forever came out there were people saying it couldn't be Ringo on drums because they'd never heard him play anything that complex before.

[ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: jlomax ]