Question about the Linn LP12 turntable

[GMav]

I have wondered for quite a while..........

Why has Linn opted to never offer, or suggest the use of a record "clamping" system for their turntable?

Anybody have an idea? Just curious.

[MikeyH]

I have wondered for quite a while..........

Why has Linn opted to never offer, or suggest the use of a record "clamping" system for their turntable?

Anybody have an idea? Just curious.

I have an idea. They tried it and it sounded worse.

if you want some sort of scientific back up to this, you'll need to find an 80's magazine Hi Fi Choice (the tiny comparison one, not the later full magazine) on Turntables. Martin Colloms contrasted the behavior of the Sondek and other leading contenders, with some interesting spectrograms of disc resonance while on the platter. No one does this sort of off-the-wall experimentation now, which is a pity, but the correlation of listening and experimental measurements were far from exact. At least they tried.

FWIW, I agree with Linn. I just play records.

[Metralla]

With a suspension like the Linn, a record weight would upset the balance, so that would be ruled out.

There were plastic clamps back in the days when the Linn was rated among the top players, but I don't recall any Linnies using them. Ivor liked his felt mat, probably thought that it was all that was needed. I never tried any clamp on my Sondek.

I have no real insight as to why they were not used, although the message from Linn was that the coupling was already correct for how it should function.

[GMav]

Interesting how the majority of high end tables, and alot of other tables, utilize a "clamping" system. I wonder how Linn deals with "dished" or warped records? It seems to me they would slip on a felt mat? Less of the record in contact with the mat..........:confused:

[TONEPUB]

Well, actually an LP-12 doesn't do that great with warped or dished records..

At least mine didn't! But it does a great job with everything else, that's the good news. My advise is to stick to making your Linn all Linn. Normally I love to tweak away, but I've had the best results staying as Linn as possible...

[James Glennon]

My advise is to stick to making your Linn all Linn. Normally I love to tweak away, but I've had the best results staying as Linn as possible...

I used to think that way - LP12/Ittok/Karma - but now I use a Well Tempered Arm with Denon DL304 moving coil cartridge and find the sound more open (not soft) and less strident.

As I posted in another thread I was 'contemplating' buying another turntable (but keeping the LP12), but I recently saw a review of the Lingo II power supply which said it was much better than the original Lingo, so I may go down that route.

Jeff, do you find having different turntables makes you switch back and forth a lot (not including reviewing them).

JG

JG

[James Glennon]

My advise is to stick to making your Linn all Linn. Normally I love to tweak away, but I've had the best results staying as Linn as possible...

I used to think that way - LP12/Ittok/Karma - but now I use a Well Tempered Arm with Denon DL304 moving coil cartridge and find the sound more open (not soft) and less strident.

As I posted in another thread I was 'contemplating' buying another turntable (but keeping the LP12), but I recently saw a review of the Lingo II power supply which said it was much better than the original Lingo, so I may go down that route.

Jeff, do you find having different turntables makes you switch back and forth a lot (not including reviewing them).

JG

[MikeyH]

Interesting how the majority of high end tables, and alot of other tables, utilize a "clamping" system. I wonder how Linn deals with "dished" or warped records? It seems to me they would slip on a felt mat? Less of the record in contact with the mat..........:confused:

Both sides play fine. I only ever had a problem with very dished 45s which are also very light. The standard mat has quite a bit of fluffy 'give' and grips quite well, where an acrylic platter with no mat often won't play without the clamp at all.

There can be a problem with azimuth if the dish is severe. Warps that are visible do affect the sound and stress the cartridge more.. my solution has always been to file the LP with all the others and come back to it in 6 months. That really does work for both dishes and warps. (the opposite is also true - don't store anything where it's bent).

It is true that other tables sound better with their clamping system in use - but they're designed to.

[Kent Teffeteller]

Hi,

The record clamps upset the suspension setup on the LP-12. This is super sensitive on Linns. The Sondek favors medium mass cartridges and arms. Tracking warps is not what Linn is strong for. For warps, I use a Technics with a low mass arm. For that Linn sound with the right material, I use my LP-12. I keep my LP-12 mainly Linn!

[ubsman]

Some guy locally selling a Linn Sondek LP12 Turntable. Includes a trampoline and a circus, whatever that is. Strangely he has an Audio Technica cartridge on it.

Haven't seen it. It's in a local on-line ad.

[TONEPUB]

Jeff, do you find having different turntables makes you switch back and forth a lot (not including reviewing them).

JG

James, actually not. I had an Oracle Delphi 2 from 1981 until 96 when Oracle kind of went under for a while. During that time I also had a Rega Planar 3 that I bought in 1983, which I kept until about six months ago. In the middle of all that I had a Music Hall MMF 5.1, which I didn't much care for and a Rega P25 which I had for a few years, really loved it and used it for all the Groovetracer mods. (then I sold it to a forum member and kind of regretted it...)

I had a brief go with an LP-12, which I just couldn't get dialed in the way I wanted it and was beyond my abilities a couple of years ago. I still have the utmost respect for the LP-12 and now that I have set up about thirty tables since then, am anxious to find another one to conquer one of these days!

I did have that AVID Volvere for about a year which I really liked a lot, but the Oracle Delphi V which will be in this issue of TONE is so close in sound to the AVID, I decided to go back to the Oracle.

So, in a nutshell, I'm back to my two old favorites and a new one, Rega (I now have a P9 that I really love) Oracle (the current Delphi V, ditto) and my SME 10 with an SME V arm that is my reference table. I also have an Audio Technica SL1200 clone for playing 78's and a SOTA Comet for mono discs, which may go as well...

I expect that these three tables will continue to be my workhorses for years to come. My good freind Dan who is our classical editor is the mega analog guy, so he can review all the 20-50k tables.

And now that I finally put my hands on the ASR Basis Exclusive phono stage, I doubt I'll ever be changing that either. As long as it's my reference, it's ok if things are above and below it....

[Stax Fan]

Some guy locally selling a Linn Sondek LP12 Turntable. Includes a trampoline and a circus, whatever that is. Strangely he has an Audio Technica cartridge on it.

Haven't seen it. It's in a local on-line ad.

An Audio Technica AT-OC9ML/II is a good match tonally for an LP12. It's similar to the Linn Arkiv, but a much better value. :)

The Cirkus is the most recent bearing. The Trampolin is a lightweight platform for the LP12 to rest on. A wall shelf is better and a Ken Lyon Neuance shelf on a wall shelf is the bee's knees. :D A lightweight platform of some sort allows the tuned springs of the suspension to operate ideally, otherwise they're dealing with resonances lower than the designed spec...like 3Hz or somewhere around there. If that crap gets through, it'll smear the sound. Anyway, a lot of LP12 owners have never really heard what the table can do because of poor setup and/or faulty siting.

[TONEPUB]

An Audio Technica AT-OC9ML/II is a good match tonally for an LP12. It's similar to the Linn Arkiv, but a much better value. :)

Anyway, a lot of LP12 owners have never really heard what the table can do because of poor setup and/or faulty siting.


Boy, is that the truth!!

I've heard a couple of LP-12's that were really dialed in and it is a very impressive table indeed!!

[fxsuperglide]

I've heard a couple of LP-12's that were really dialed in and it is a very impressive table indeed!!

Even a "poor man's Sondek" (i.e. mildly tweaked early version with a few simple upgrades) can be impressive when set up correctly. I actually built one for a friend from surplus bonded pre-Cirkus subchassis/inner platter, latest spec hardware, a rebuilt/modified Linn Basik LVV tonearm (w/ Akito horizontal bearings), Thorens outer platter modded to fit, and my own homemade plinth/fabricated "aftermarket" top plate (Linn measurements). He owns a used record store and needed something to replace his in-store turntable. I knew he would like it, but I never realized how much until I received his email a few days later. He mentions how all surface noise (other than what's on the record itself) disappeared, as well as distortion (mistracking). To quote him exactly, this was his closing sentence "....rest assured, you have made one vinyl junkie VERY happy! And I am relistening to many old favorites again, and hearing them for the first time!" It's moments like this that makes one realize that the Linn is one incredible turntable, even in it's simplest, most "basik" form. ......Oh, and as a note, his previous tables were a Technics SL-BD27 (a "cheap" plastic Technics, developed motor issues), BIC 960 (loaner table, not in the best of condition), and his home unit, a ProJect (which he said the Linn easily outperformed and now replaces).

[fxsuperglide]

If surface noise isn`t on the record itself, why call it "surface" noise?

Sorry for not explaining it clearer. A lot of what the average person thinks is "surface noise" on a record is actually noise being created by the turntable itself. On many inexpensive turntables (especially some idler drives), it can be heard as "rumble". The best way to describe it is that "rolling bowling ball" or "low scratchy" sound that can be heard on a silent part of a record. That's NOT surface noise, that's turntable noise being picked up by the cartridge/stylus and amplified. The noise can be caused by a host of things, such as external vibrations, arm resonances, etc, but is most often the cause is the platter bearing, a noisy motor drive system, or a combination of factors. Because the Linn Sondek LP12 has a precision single-point hardened steel spindle in an equally precise bearing housing, it runs ultra quiet. Combine that with the fact the platter/tonearm are coupled together, but isolated on it's own subchassis, apart from the motor (which is only connected via drive belt), further improves the sound and isolation. This is why my friend mentioned the lack of surface noise (and mentions if there's any noise, it's only from the record itself, and not from the turntable). Hope that explains it better.

[MikeyH]

The 'surface noise' issue caught me when I got my first Sondek home in 1983.

I put on Revolver, which I'd bought the week before and played a few times on my previous home-build Sondek clone. Turned it up until I heard the 'whoosh', like before. Uh...squeak 2..3..4.. CLANG..

I had to race for the amp, but not before a big grin and a couple of swear words had broken out..

Yes, turntables do affect the perceived dynamic range of vinyl playback.