Has M&K kicked the bucket?

[soundboy]

On its website (http://www.mksound.com/), it mentioned the closing of its CA factory as of 02/22/2007. However, it says nothing about the company going out of business.

Anyone knows for sure?

[-=Rudy=-]

No clue, but I hate to see another company start "offshoring" manufacturing jobs... :shake:

[SamS]

That is strange. I own two M&K subs, both are really nice although maybe not the best bang for the buck out there.

M&K has a long history and strong professional presence, I'd be suprised if they closed up shop.

[soundboy]

No clue, but I hate to see another company start "offshoring" manufacturing jobs... :shake:

I actually think they're doing that already. I've seen photos of M&K's new showroom in China and the products they specifically make for that market. I will link those pics once I find them on the net.

[coopmv]

No clue, but I hate to see another company start "offshoring" manufacturing jobs... :shake:

I hear you. I thought M&K used to make pretty good subs.

[soundboy]

I just came across the following response by M&K's Ken Kreisel which kind of explain why M&K has went out of business....

Jason,

Thank you for your new email.

I am sorry to say that I think your 3 LCR-750's are counterfeit and/or unauthorized M&K product. It is a little complicated so let me please explain:

From the beginning we made the LCR-750THX MKII speakers at our factory in the USA with all of M&K's famous quality control systems and special tests which are exactly the same procedure and people that test our top professional speakers used by the world's best studios like George Lucas' Skywalk Sound.

In April 2006 we started to make the LCR-750THX MKII speakers in China at the Everbright/ACI factory. In April, under my instructions, I sent our head engineer to supervise production in China and to make sure these LCR-750 MKII speakers had top quality control and passed my M&K and THX tests and specifications.

After our engineer left China, Everbright/ACI continued to build LCR-750 speakers for shipping all over the world, including to China to Miro Sound, our China distributor. Many LCR-750 speakers were shipped from China to the USA to sell in the USA. For the USA market we would open and test, at the M&K USA factory, 100% of the China build speakers, including the LCR-750 speakers. During the summer of 2006 we found that the LCR-750 quality was not up to M&K standards and about 30% of the LCR-750 speakers and other China made speakers failed M&K and THX tests and did not meet M&K specifications. In September 2006 we decided all China made speakers and subwoofers must come to the USA first for testing and then M&K would ship them all over the world, including back to China. This is the only way we could guaranty M&K quality.

I must tell you that M&K quality standards are very high for even our least expensive speaker. Our least expensive speaker is tested and must pass the same tests as our professional speakers.

Here is the problem: After we decided to stop shipping M&K speakers directly from the Everbright/ACI factory due to bad quality, we now know that from September 2006 until today, there is LCR-750 speakers being shipped directly to Miro Sound from the Everbright/ACI factory which is not authorized or tested or sold by M&K. We know that Miro Sound is buying these speakers directly from the Everbright/ACI factory probably at a reduced price. I have no idea about the quality or performance of these speaker except that by our testing in the USA M&K factory, about 30% of the LCR-750's do not meet M&K and THX specs. M&K does not receive any money from these counterfeit speakers. We have been trying to stop the sale of these counterfeit speakers into China and the U.K. for many months. M&K has lost a lot of money because of this, and it hurts M&K reputation around the world because of the poor quality. We have seen these speakers with shorted crossover networks and out of phase drivers which means the speakers were never tested at all in China before sent to the dealer or customer.

Our Taiwan distributor Keep Running buys the LCR-750's directly from the M&K factory because they want only top quality M&K speakers properly tested and inspected by M&K USA.

It is possible that your LCR-750 speakers are OK, but there is about a 30% chance that they are not OK, based upon our past experience with LCR-750's built in China, but I cannot say what parts are in your speakers.

As you know, we just closed the M&K company completely. Some of the reason we closed is due to lost money on unauthorized and counterfeit speakers.

Please look at this news article from Stereophile Magazine about M&K closing at http://www.stereophile.com/news/030507kreisel/ .

I am sorry for this very long explanation. I hope your LCR-750's are OK and that they are giving you good sound.

GOOD SOUND TO YOU..... ALWAYS,

KEN KREISEL

Creek also went through a similar situation several years ago when its OEM in China "hijacked" its product. Of course, Creek survived and it's still amongst us.

[coopmv]

This is a very sad story. Counterfeited goods are major problems for many European, American and Japanese manufacturers. Some countries just completely ignore the bylaws of the WTO.

[SamS]

Soundboy, thanks for sharing. So they are definitely out of business? Their website still seems unclear :confused:

[Danny]

I just got to say that the wording of that letter seems kind of strange. I don't know anything about Mr. Kreisel or M&K so I don't really know what kind of connection I'm trying to make. But just reading it over, I was thinking how unusual some of the wording was.

[coopmv]

Soundboy, thanks for sharing. So they are definitely out of business? Their website still seems unclear :confused:

The M&K sad experience should make many small American companies that have excellent product quality think twice before they outsource to some unscrupulous offshore manufacturers.

[fyrfytrhoges]

i have one question relating to m&k speakers and pioneer etc. etc. receivers, dvd players and so on, isnt the THX certification been deemed bogus? this is only what ive read, i can say that my pioneer elite THX receiver sounds like doo doo......

[coopmv]

i have one question relating to m&k speakers and pioneer etc. etc. receivers, dvd players and so on, isnt the THX certification been deemed bogus? this is only what ive read, i can say that my pioneer elite THX receiver sounds like doo doo......

I believe any amps that have the THX logo need to pay George Lucas & Company royalties.

[SamS]

The M&K sad experience should make many small American companies that have excellent product quality think twice before they outsource to some unscrupulous offshore manufacturers.

I'm sure they thought long and hard about the decision. All last year, I worked for a company (different industry) that started to offshore some of their product to China. It was done purely to save on costs and to be competitive. No American business owner wants to cut domestic jobs so they can start bringing in a container load of stuff from overseas. It's just how the market works. If you want to stay viable in an extremely competitive market, and you're really getting hammered on price, offshore manufacturing is something you will have to consider one day.

i have one question relating to m&k speakers and pioneer etc. etc. receivers, dvd players and so on, isnt the THX certification been deemed bogus? this is only what ive read, i can say that my pioneer elite THX receiver sounds like doo doo......

To 'earn' or license a product for THX status, you have to meet rigorous standards for measured response, user interface, algorithms and a host of other requirements. That doesn't always transfer into good sound, it's more like a stamp of approval that the product has met pre-determined required specs.

[seriousfun]

M&K's troubles run longer and deeper than just the Chinese counterfeiting issue. It probably was the last straw...but not the total story by any means.

Quality, controlled Chinese manufacturing should have been done years ago, but M&K apparently ran into this significant problem.They're not the only company to be hit like this - there is still little respect of intellectual property there.

SamS gave a reasonable explaination about THX. Not all M&K speakers were THX, but M&K's designs were a major part of the THX formula.

I believe that it is clear that M&K is gone for good.

[coopmv]

I wonder how Quad and KEF are doing these days quality wise? Both formerly British companies were bought out by the Chinese two or three years ago.

[Blair G.]

I wonder how Quad and KEF are doing these days quality wise? Both formerly British companies were bought out by the Chinese two or three years ago.

I don't know about Quad but after years of being almost invisible KEF is suddenly all over the place. At least it looks that way.

Biggest chain around these parts now carries them as well as at least one of the HiFi shops. I see a lot more advertising and reviews the last couple of years.

Not sure about the quality though. The lower models look kind of cheap and light weight. I'm glad I bought all of my KEF speakers while they were still built in Britain.

[coopmv]

I don't know about Quad but after years of being almost invisible KEF is suddenly all over the place. At least it looks that way.

Biggest chain around these parts now carries them as well as at least one of the HiFi shops. I see a lot more advertising and reviews the last couple of years.

Not sure about the quality though. The lower models look kind of cheap and light weight. I'm glad I bought all of my KEF speakers while they were still built in Britain.

I have never owned British speakers, but I love my Canadian speakers. The PSB's and Axioms are every bit as good as most British speakers except the top of the line B&W's. They are also much more affordable due to the still favorable exchange rate and I prefer to support North American-made products, including my Honda Pilot which was built in Ontario. If I buy anything British-made, it has to be both designed and built in Britain, like my Rega Planet 2000 and NAD 118.

[Blair G.]

I agree about the exchange rate thing and most of the Canadian speakers are an even better deal for us up here.

Luckily I bought my main KEFs just before the exchange rate was an issue (I paid $1700, a year later they were $3K).
My theatre KEFS were bought from a small dealer who sells to me at close to cost. Otherwise I'd have bought Cdn for sure.

Planet 2000....nice machine.

[coopmv]

I agree about the exchange rate thing and most of the Canadian speakers are an even better deal for us up here.

Luckily I bought my main KEFs just before the exchange rate was an issue (I paid $1700, a year later they were $3K).
My theatre KEFS were bought from a small dealer who sells to me at close to cost. Otherwise I'd have bought Cdn for sure.

Planet 2000....nice machine.

I absolutely will not pay over $2K for a pair of British speakers that were not made in Britain, period. Relative to the pound, the USD has gone to hell.

[Blair G.]

I absolutely will not pay over $2K for a pair of British speakers that were not made in Britain, period. Relative to the pound, the USD has gone to hell.

Neither would I.

Probably should have pointed out my 104.2's are from '86, long before offshore manufacturing was an option. And at that time the exchange rate pounds -> Canadian $$ was favorable. Not now.

I think the current KEF Reference line is still made in Britain but I still wouldn't touch them.

All the British speakers I like now are still designed and built in England: Spendor, Harbeth and a few others.

[coopmv]

Neither would I.

Probably should have pointed out my 104.2's are from '86, long before offshore manufacturing was an option. And at that time the exchange rate pounds -> Canadian $$ was favorable. Not now.

I think the current KEF Reference line is still made in Britain but I still wouldn't touch them.

All the British speakers I like now are still designed and built in England: Spendor, Harbeth and a few others.

I just located a Spendor dealer in CT. When I get my Mac at some point, I would like it to drive a pair of Spendors. Indeed, country of manufacuring is important to me. I just do not care for designed in country X and assembled in country Y and the product is marketed as a product from country X, particularly when the product costs a non-trivial amount of money.

[Rolf Erickson]

My experience is that Chinese (Communist) made parts and products are generally inferior, often to an apalling degree, to Ameri-Euro made products. On top of that, they are often Crooks in regard to property rights as well. I enjoyed the sound of M&K products in the 1970's when I first heard them in Santa Monica, CA. At Miller sound. (The "M" in M&K) They were early adopters of the "Satellite/Sub-Woofer" concept. It saddens me when I hear of an American company being made to go out of business by Chinese criminal operators.

[Mike from NYC]

M&K's troubles run longer and deeper than just the Chinese counterfeiting issue. It probably was the last straw...but not the total story by any means.

Quality, controlled Chinese manufacturing should have been done years ago, but M&K apparently ran into this significant problem.They're not the only company to be hit like this - there is still little respect of intellectual property there.



'Quality control' and 'Chinese made' are oxymorons. Many companies who 'off-shored' their factory production and or software production are finding lots of problems they didn't anticipate and they are finding that their cost savings are being eaten up by the high rate of rejected items and the attendant shipping costs. This is not only a M&K problem but a problem being experienced by almost all manufacturers who now source components from China and India.

Even the simplest of items such as 'train wheels' have a high reject ratio as many were machined off-center and had to be returned or put on a lathe to 'true-up' the wheel done at great expense at the railroad yards. The LIRR has experienced numerous problems.

While Chinese products are getting better, the zealous cost cutting frenzy of corporations are squeezing factory prices and the owners of the plants forego quality control and/or use inferior components than originally intended to make up the difference.

Theft of patents, trademarks and software is another HUGE problem in China and India and the problem is out-of-control. Companies usually find out about this too late before their profits are killed off.

While I don't want to appear as a racist I don't trust the Chinese manufacturing industry as I think it is embedded with thieves. Piracy is rampant and the government is making veiled attempts to stop it but have not even dented the problem nor do they want to. Why any company would move its manufacturing to China is beyond me and companies need to research the problems of others before they make the leap to China.

[soundboy]

While I don't want to appear as a racist I don't trust the Chinese manufacturing industry as I think it is embedded with thieves. Piracy is rampant and the government is making veiled attempts to stop it but have not even dented the problem nor do they want to.

Corruption is a series problem there and government officials often look the other way if they're paid "under the table". In fact, theft of intellectual properties is often done by government officials (i.e. CD piracy).

[seriousfun]

'Quality control' and 'Chinese made' are oxymorons. Many companies who 'off-shored' their factory production and or software production are finding lots of problems they didn't anticipate and they are finding that their cost savings are being eaten up by the high rate of rejected items and the attendant shipping costs. This is not only a M&K problem but a problem being experienced by almost all manufacturers who now source components from China and India.

...

Your argument may have been relevant ten years ago. I am in the manufacturing business; we have researched Chinese manufacturing and, while it is not right for our products now (we work on a small scale and build high-quality products), we may do this in the future. Many other companies in our industry are successfully doing this - they have to be careful. I'd hardly call this a problem for all manufacturers, since so much of what we buy isn't available except if it's made in China.

I worked for M&K for seven years, at their peak. I won't say anything good or bad about them, but Chinese counterfeiting was probably not their biggest problem or the main reason for the closure.