iPod, Rockbox, FLAC - help me! :) [Archive]

jmanley1

01-20-2007, 11:35 AM

Sorry for the poor subject title of this thread but I wanted to get the right peoples attention.

Lately, I've been very tempted to finally give in and get an iPod. But, before I make the plunge I wanted to lay out how all of this will work (at least, as I picture it) and please correct me if some of my assumptions are wrong.

I want to rip my cds (some 300 or so) via EAC, convert the wav's to FLAC files and save them to my back up drive (160 GB). Then, I want to be able to move these FLAC files to an iPod to be listened to at work or in my car. For the car (I have an '06 Camry) I will need to get some converter device to hook up to my stereo system, I assume. Not sure of the cost or how much is involved with this (any advice would be appreciated).

As I understand it, to use FLAC files with iPod I will need to use the program Rockbox. How that will work with the iPod, I'm unclear. Will that act as my Itunes to move the FLAC files back and forth from my back up drive to the iPod?

Also, on average, how many FLAC 'hours' of music will fit on a 30 GB iPod?

Lastly, are there any studies that have been conducted on how long the lifespan on an iPod is? I have had this idea in my head for several years now but I've never taken the plunge because I'm not much of a risk taker. But, given the upside of carrying a lossless music library of all of my favorite LP's (CDs) and singles around on one device is just too delicious to pass up any more, I think.

boead

01-20-2007, 12:24 PM

Rockbox replaces the Apple iPod operating system so basically the only thing left that’s Apple is the actually hardware. You don’t use iTunes anymore.

You falling for the FLAC thing? If you really want to use an lossless file format with your pod then use Apple Lossless. But really the honest truth is that that the iPod is incapable of revealing much (if any) difference between a maximum quality MP3 or AAC and a Lossless file. The hardware inside an iPod or any other DAP is inferior in terms of being source revealing.

My opinion only, obviously but I’m a BIG believer in high priced power cords, interconnect and wire. I can clearly hear the differences between different tube brands and types and so on. But for the sake of, I can’t head much of a difference, if any between a 300kbps MP3 and an Apple Lossless or WAV file on an iPod or Creative Zen and I’ve used a dozen different headphones and $2000+ headphone amps. I’m sorry, but the difference is SO insignificant, its ridiculous. AND BESIDES, the audio environment in a car is so bad that what even if the difference WAS significant, it would not be audible in a car, especially on a stock audio system in a Toyota.

Do yourself a favor. Get an iPod if you want and enjoy it. Rip you CD’s at 256k AAC or MP3 and be done with it.

DJ WILBUR

01-20-2007, 12:26 PM

Rip you CD’s at 256k AAC or MP3 and be done with it.

I agree with this assessment of playback on an ipod and you'll be fine at this bit rate.

Aman

01-20-2007, 12:27 PM

While the difference may not be noticeable on an iPod for most, imagine ripping everything to FLAC, and then transcoding it again to MP3. That would be such a mess - 2 of each track on your hard drive. It may just be a convenience thing.

seventeen

01-20-2007, 01:10 PM

Metralla

01-20-2007, 02:21 PM

Do yourself a favor. Get an iPod if you want and enjoy it. Rip you CD’s at 256k AAC or MP3 and be done with it.
Why not use Apple Lossless? On a 60GB that's around 100 or so CDs, or 50 CDs on a 30GB. That's plenty, surely. Why bother with compression - it's not as if you need the space?

hobbes

01-20-2007, 03:37 PM

Hi,

I used Rockbox on my iPod for more than a year (b/c of my desire to use FLAC files). Finally, I switched back to the Apple software last year because the battery life with Rockbox suffers greatly. Hence, I opted for two music folders – once folder for FLAC files and one for mp3 files for the iPod on my computer.
To listen to my FLAC files, I use Foobar2000. For my mp3 files and the iPod, I use iTunes. After working with iTunes for more several months now, I really like the software from a user perspective (I use the Multi-Plug-in to use the Foobar2000 passthrough, which enhances the sound quality but gives me the iTunes convenience).

Since hard drives are cheap, I do not mind having two music folders. EAC allows me to rip to FLAC as well as mp3. So, it is no big deal in terms of the time it takes to rip every CD twice. Also, on the iPod, I cannot hear a difference between well encoded mp3 files and lossless files. I am not saying that there aren’t any – but I cannot hear a difference.

Why do I mention this? Well, you should think about the user interface! If you like the convenience of iTunes you may want to go with Apple Lossless. However, iTunes has problems with gapless playback, cover art management, etc. WinAmp, Foobar2000, etc. have also advantages and disadvantages. They can handle FLAC files, have a better cover art management, manage ID tags better,….

So, before making a final decision with regard to FLAC vs. Apple Lossless (or any other file format), think about the software/user interface you will use to manage and listen to your music.

Currently, I am struggling with this myself. I am wondering whether I should switch to Apple lossless to be able to use iTunes since I really like the “ease of use.”

What are you folks using?

boead

01-20-2007, 03:51 PM

I disagree, I transfered a bunch of CDs to mp3 320 (mainly Bad Brains stuff), and they all sounded clipped on the ipod playback, with earphones or connected to the high end hifi.
I'm not even going to Iggy remix of Raw Power... just play unlistenable when transformed to MP3.
Anyway I re-ripped with lossless, and the results were, to my ears, much closer to the actual CD, not thin souding, but full, thick, low, mid and high...
That's just my ears. But I trust them.

Clipping? Maybe it’s the ripper you used and/or some of the settings. I have 45 GB , about a 1100 songs as WAV’s on my drive and currently 93GB, about 19,000 songs as MP3’s. I have used (over the years) MusicMatch, iTunes and EAC mostly VBR-MaxQ, some at CBR 320k and none are clipped, distorted or exhibit any other obvious distortions. I RIP some of my music as WAV for listening more critically through my DAC but the MP3’s are for convenience in the car, on the road and at work. The only time I notice the difference is through a California Audio Labs and ScottNixon DAC’s I own.

boead

01-20-2007, 04:01 PM

Hi,
Since hard drives are cheap, I do not mind having two music folders. EAC allows me to rip to FLAC as well as mp3. So, it is no big deal in terms of the time it takes to rip every CD twice. Also, on the iPod, I cannot hear a difference between well encoded mp3 files and lossless files. I am not saying that there aren’t any – but I cannot hear a difference.

Red Wine Audio does a mod called the iMod. I’ve been following his forum threads for some time over at Audio Circles. All too many people make the same comment after dropping a few hundred dollars having their iPods hacked into and modified. T hey say they can still hardly tell the difference between compressed and lossless files. Vinny will comment back and tell them to ‘let it break in’ but I’ve private messaged many of them and asked their feelings and most (if not all) say it’s a waste. The unfortunate truth is that the inherent design of a portable player like an iPod is limiting in fidelity no matter how much money you throw at it. Also Flac and Apple Lossless consume more battery power.

Currently, I am struggling with this myself. I am wondering whether I should switch to Apple lossless to be able to use iTunes since I really like the “ease of use.”

What are you folks using?

I choose to use WAV. Since HD space is cheap and I like the idea of having an uncompressed 1400kbps 2-channel file in its native 16/44 format. I can do what I please to them down the road in terms of crosscoding.

intlplby

01-20-2007, 05:38 PM

please please please give apple feedback ... tell them to support flac

http://www.apple.com/feedback/ipod.html
http://www.apple.com/feedback/itunesapp.html

crooner

01-20-2007, 06:58 PM

I already have all my collection ripped and transcoded to FLAC for use with my Squeezebox. Quite a hassle to convert tracks to MP3 for use with my iPod. Hence, I chose Rockbox. I wasn't really looking for audiophile quality in my car, specially since I also use the stock CD system. It was a just a matter of convenience.

Fortunately, 30 gig was plenty to put quite a few songs in FLAC format for car listening. One can always erase them and put new ones if space is at a premium...

The best way to hook up the iPod to your stock Toyota head unit is using a product called USA-SPEC DFTOY. It's a device that converts the CD changer input into a regular AUX input for use with the iPOD. Installation took me less than 30 minutes. Around $75 including tax at my local Circuit City. Sound quality is superb.

http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/products/2004/581/l581DFTOY-f-1.jpeg

Henry Love

01-20-2007, 10:18 PM

I bought a Cowon IAUDIO X5L 30GB player.Pictures,movies,music,FM radio and recording and voice.
I'm able to use flac in its stock configuration,sounds very good to me.
Can't compare it to the IPOD though.I bought the 60GB IPOD and it froze on me before I even heard it.That thing went right back to the store.

seventeen

01-21-2007, 01:17 AM

Clipping? Maybe it’s the ripper you used and/or some of the settings. I have 45 GB , about a 1100 songs as WAV’s on my drive and currently 93GB, about 19,000 songs as MP3’s. I have used (over the years) MusicMatch, iTunes and EAC mostly VBR-MaxQ, some at CBR 320k and none are clipped, distorted or exhibit any other obvious distortions. I RIP some of my music as WAV for listening more critically through my DAC but the MP3’s are for convenience in the car, on the road and at work. The only time I notice the difference is through a California Audio Labs and ScottNixon DAC’s I own.

I ripped with itunes. What I mean is, those CD are mastered very hot (ie Iggy Raw Power remix, Bad Brains best of) and the ripping in a compressed format just bring out the already apparent "in the red" mastering so much that it sounds totally clipped (which is probably in the first place). With Itunes that is. I'm a mac user, so I didn't experience any other ripping software.

Aman

01-21-2007, 02:22 AM

I ripped with itunes. What I mean is, those CD are mastered very hot (ie Iggy Raw Power remix, Bad Brains best of) and the ripping in a compressed format just bring out the already apparent "in the red" mastering so much that it sounds totally clipped (which is probably in the first place). With Itunes that is. I'm a mac user, so I didn't experience any other ripping software.

You need to check out Max right away:

http://sbooth.org/Max/

seventeen

01-21-2007, 03:59 AM

Thanks, I have one question thought, how far is it different to just copying the aiff files direct from the CD to one folder ? I mean, when a mix is extracted, it's in aiff or wav. So when a copy is made, we just clone the file. When you extract a commercial CD by just cloning the files to your hard drive, how is it different from ripping the CD with LAME or Max ?

drh

01-22-2007, 07:33 PM

...Also, on average, how many FLAC 'hours' of music will fit on a 30 GB iPod? ....

I've been wondering much the same thing in a slightly different context--trying to figure out how big a hard drive I need to turn an old computer into a music server. Since no other answers seemed to be forthcoming, I ran an experiment over the past couple of days. Using a program called MediaMonkey, I ripped several ca. 75-minute CDs to FLAC format. (I chose 75 minutes as representing something longer than most, but not all, of my CDs, meaning it would make a conservative basis for estimating.) The discs in question and results, from least to most space-hungry, were as follows:

Wilhelm Kempff, 2d disc of Schumann solo piano works set on Deutsche Gramophon, 76:20, consumed 270mb in FLAC form, or 3.54mb per minute.

David Stanhope, virtuoso piano transcriptions on Tall Poppies, 76:06, consumed 295mb, or 3.88mb per min.

Leontine Price, 2d disc of a collection of opera arias on RCA Victor, 76:44, consumed 371mb, or 4.83mb per min.

Hillary Hahn, Bach sonatas and partitas for unaccompanied violin on Sony Classical, 78:44, consumed 419mb, or 5.32mb per min.

Leopold Stokowski, 2d disc of the Decca Phase 4 recordings vol. 2 (Beethoven sym. 9 and Egmont Overture), 76:23, consumed 414mb, or 5.42mb per min.

By my figures, the average for these discs works out to around 4.6mb per minute, or about 345mb for a 75-minute CD. That suggests roughly 3 such discs will consume 1gb; hence, your 30gb iPod could be expected to hold around 90 (probably a few fewer) 75-minute CDs.

As an aside, the most space-hungry discs were also the newest; I wonder if perhaps the compression bug has hit classical productions as well? I may try a few more experiments to see....

Michael St. Clair

01-22-2007, 09:16 PM

Every year I download hundreds of hours of music in FLAC. Legal, live music.

Lots of it, I'm not even sure if I want to keep. Easy FLAC playback lets me check it out before deciding if I want to go through the hassle of encoding to MP3 and tagging it.

Don't crap on people for using FLAC. They have their reasons. Mine is that the free legal music sites don't use Apple Lossless.

crooner

01-22-2007, 09:20 PM

FLAC is the way to go. Excellent format, easily transcoded back to WAV or other formats if needed.
The original WAV file is preserved faithfully, bit by bit. The tag capability is priceless. Being open sourced, it's not crippled by copy protection schemes, which most users (such as myself) don't need since we rip music from our own store bought CD collections.

It's a real shame that Apple refuses to support it. Fortunately, there's Rockbox!

hobbes

01-23-2007, 12:39 PM

Don't crap on people for using FLAC. They have their reasons.

I don't think anybody craps on people for using FLAC. FLAC has tremendous advantages - no question. I, myself, love it for the reasons you mention (and more) and have more than 500GB of FLAC files. However, FLAC also has some problems. Not the format itself but rather with the compatibility/integration with other software.
If Apple would support FLAC (iTunes and iPod), things would be very different. I know, Rockbox is there. But Rockbox (which I used for more than a year) drains the battery of the iPod fast. Further, Rockbox does not work with the new 80GB iPod.

When you decide on a file format, you have to take other components into consideration. If you have an 80GB iPod and/or like the iTunes interface, you cannot use FLAC (unfortunately).

What music player/music management software do you use? I am trying to use Foobar2000. Hopefully, I will be able to replace iTunes by Foobar.

hobbes

01-23-2007, 12:47 PM

I choose to use WAV. Since HD space is cheap and I like the idea of having an uncompressed 1400kbps 2-channel file in its native 16/44 format. I can do what I please to them down the road in terms of crosscoding.

What software do you use to manage/play your music on your computer?

Having wav files is certainly an advantage for crosscoding, etc. And you are right, since HD's are cheap, space is really not an issue. However, don't you miss having tags? That is a huge advantage of FLAC and other formats (lossless or not), I think.

J. R.

01-23-2007, 12:54 PM

I don't think anybody craps on people for using FLAC. FLAC has tremendous advantages - no question. I, myself, love it for the reasons you mention (and more) and have more than 500GB of FLAC files. However, FLAC also has some problems. Not the format itself but rather with the compatibility/integration with other software.
If Apple would support FLAC (iTunes and iPod), things would be very different. I know, Rockbox is there. But Rockbox (which I used for more than a year) drains the battery of the iPod fast. Further, Rockbox does not work with the new 80GB iPod.

When you decide on a file format, you have to take other components into consideration. If you have an 80GB iPod and/or like the iTunes interface, you cannot use FLAC (unfortunately).

What music player/music management software do you use? I am trying to use Foobar2000. Hopefully, I will be able to replace iTunes by Foobar.

I have a Creative Zen Xtra...will Rockbox work with it? Right now I encode my music files to 320kps MP3's (from FLAC) and I CAN tell the difference.

J. R.

hobbes

01-23-2007, 01:26 PM

I have a Creative Zen Xtra...will Rockbox work with it? Right now I encode my music files to 320kps MP3's (from FLAC) and I CAN tell the difference.
J. R.

According to http://www.rockbox.org/, these are the players that are supported:
- Archos: Jukebox 5000, 6000, Studio, Recorder, FM Recorder, Recorder V2 and Ondio
- iriver: H100, H300 and H10 series
- Apple: iPod 4th gen (grayscale and color), 5th/5.5th gen (Video - 30GB and 60GB models only), 1st gen Nano and Mini 1st/2nd gen (Nano 2nd gen and 80GB Video 5.5th gen are not supported)
- iAudio: X5 (including X5V and X5L)
- Toshiba: Gigabeat X and F series (the S model is not supported)